Meterbase combo, No main brk. ??? Inspector

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Dennis Alwon said:
Once they go rid of the lighting & appliance branch panelboard, that changed things. 2005 no good, 2008 good to go.

Buck what was the resolution.
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I agree and also want to know what the resolution was.:smile:
 
crossman said:
RE: NEC 2008 - 408.36 Excp 1 first sentence



Someone asked the code section which concerns the OP. There it is.

Dennis and M.D. and yourself agree with me.;)
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No- you agree with us.:grin:
 
C3PO said:
I agree and also want to know what the resolution was.:smile:
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The inspector said that I can not use the single pole 20's in the panel . He has no issue with the amount (6) of breakers in the panel.
He is saying that I can not use a 20 amp circuit when I am not useing a main breaker. In case the breaker we're to fell.



Also he says he is under the 05 book in Mebane (a small town). I told him that the whole state changed over to the 08 code in June. He say's , well I'm an inspector and nobody told me.
 
buckofdurham said:
The inspector said that I can not use the single pole 20's in the panel . He has no issue with the amount (6) of breakers in the panel.
He is saying that I can not use a 20 amp circuit when I am not useing a main breaker. In case the breaker we're to fell.



Also he says he is under the 05 book in Mebane (a small town). I told him that the whole state changed over to the 08 code in June. He say's , well I'm an inspector and nobody told me.
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YIKES ,..good luck buddy
 
buckofdurham said:
He is saying that I can not use a 20 amp circuit when I am not useing a main breaker. In case the breaker we're to fell.
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Maybe you can show him article 230.79/80

230.80 Combined Rating of Disconnects.
Where the service disconnecting means consists of more than one switch or circuit breaker, as permitted by 230.71, the combined ratings of all the switches or circuit breakers used shall not be less than the rating required by 230.79.

I haven't been able to find anything that says you can't have a single pole breaker as a main.
 
brother said:
Ok, im at a lost here!! can someone break it down to me what article exactly is he VIOLATING in the 2005 NEC????
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Under the 2005 with the single 20's it could be considered a "lighting and appliance panel" My 05 NEC is outside.
 
brother said:
Ok, im at a lost here!! can someone break it down to me what article exactly is he VIOLATING in the 2005 NEC????
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The inspector said that he is not concerned about the amount of breakers or the branch circuit lighting.
He says I can't have a 20 amp circuit. In case the 20 amp circuit breaker fails. I guess then you would have a melted wire or worst.

Any body in NC ? Didn't the entire state change over to the 08 code in June?
Because this inspector said nobody has told him.
 
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buckofdurham said:
The inspector said that he is not concerned about the amount of breakers or the branch circuit lighting.
He says I can't have a 20 amp circuit. In case the 20 amp circuit breaker fails. I guess then you would have a melted wire or worst.

Any body in NC ? Didn't the entire state change over to the 08 code in June?
Because this inspector said nobody has told him.
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File a complaint please,.. this is just sad.
 
buckofdurham said:
The inspector said that he is not concerned about the amount of breakers or the branch circuit lighting.
He says I can't have a 20 amp circuit. In case the 20 amp circuit breaker fails. I guess then you would have a melted wire or worst.

Any body in NC ? Didn't the entire state change over to the 08 code in June?
Because this inspector said nobody has told him.
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I have never heard (or read) of such in the 2005 NEC!! why can you not have a 20 amp circuit used as you have done here?? and as someelse has said, it is HIS responsibility to SHOW you the article and CODE SECTION if you have violated, NOT you showing him!
 
brother said:
I have never heard (or read) of such in the 2005 NEC!! why can you not have a 20 amp circuit used as you have done here?? and as someelse has said, it is HIS responsibility to SHOW you the article and CODE SECTION if you have violated, NOT you showing him!
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Brother-- in 2005 the code makes reference to a lighting and appliance panelboard. It states that a L&ABPB may only have (going from memory here) a maximum of 2 breakers as a disconnect for the service.

Normally six breakers are allowed but if it is a L&ABPB then only 2 disco are allowed. The definition of the L&ABPB states no more than 10% of the breakers can have a line to neutral connection under 30 amps.

If there are 6 breakers-- 5 dp and 1 sp 20 --then that means 1/6 of the breakers has a line to neutral connection under 20 amps. This panel is now a L&ABPB and must have a maximum of 2 breakers to disconnect the panel.

Is that clear as mud.

In the 08 that section has been removed.
 
Here is my attempt at an explanation:

Article 230 allows 6 disconnects, so that much is okay. However:

The 2005 Code 408.36(A) says that a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard must be protected on the supply side.

2005 NEC 408.34(A) says a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard is defined as a panel in which more than 10% of the breakers are used for lighting.

The panel mentioned in the OP has 6 breakers. Two of these breakers are for lighting, therefore approximately 32% of the breakers arefor lighting circuits = the panel is a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard.

Since the panel in the OP is a service, there is no OCP in series with the service conductors on the line side of the panel as required in 408.36(A).

Neither exception in the 2005 code 408.36(A) allows an escape clause for this situation.

The 2008 Code has done away with and changed much of 408.36 and 408.34, and the installation is now permissible.

Dennis, is that the way you see it?

EDIT: add - darn it, Dennis, I just saw you posted something. Let me read it.
 
crossman said:
Here is my attempt at an explanation:

Article 230 allows 6 disconnects, so that much is okay. However:

The 2005 Code 408.36(A) says that a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard must be protected on the supply side.

2005 NEC 408.34(A) says a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard is defined as a panel in which more than 10% of the breakers are used for lighting.

The panel mentioned in the OP has 6 breakers. Two of these breakers are for lighting, therefore approximately 32% of the breakers arefor lighting circuits = the panel is a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard.

Since the panel in the OP is a service, there is no OCP in series with the service conductors on the line side of the panel as required in 408.36(A).

Neither exception in the 2005 code 408.36(A) allows an escape clause for this situation.

The 2008 Code has done away with and changed much of 408.36 and 408.34, and the installation is now permissible.

Dennis, is that the way you see it?

EDIT: add - darn it, Dennis, I just saw you posted something. Let me read it.
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You said it much nicer than I did but yeah that's the way I see it.
 
Yes, very good , Thanks George, Dennis and all of you.

Monday I'll call the State Board to see if NC has changed to the 08 code yet.
I'll let y'all know what happens.
 
Buck here is some info for you. I got it here.
And you're welcome

Article 10 - ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION
10.1 TITLE
These Administrative Regulations along with the requirements included in the 2008 Edition of the National Electrical Code (NFiPA-70 - 2008) as approved by the North Carolina Building Code Council on March 11, 2008, to be effective June 1, 2008, with the following amendments:
(1) 90.2(B)(5)(b) Scope, Not Covered
(2) 210.8(a)(3) (Exception No. 2)
(3) 210.12 Are-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. (AFCI)
(4) 250.50
(5) 334.15 Exposed Work
(6) 406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.
shall be known as the North Carolina Electrical Code, and may be cited as such or as the State Electrical Code; and will be referred to herein as “the code” or “this code”.
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Nobody has told the Mebane NC inspector yet.

He told me "We are still going under the 05 code until the state board figures out what to do about the afci breaker changes and all that other mess"
I told him I thought the whole state has already changed over to 08.
He say's " Well I am an Inspector and nobody has told me".

I think I will write him a polite letter and leave it at the office.
This will give him time to think about it. Instead of having a ; I'm right, No your not I'm right situation.

Thanks again.
 
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