Meters & subpanels over gas. What's done in your area?

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

The choice for many is to ignore the problem.

Because of PG$E's inflexibility, that is what ends up happening a lot.

The panel I did the other week, was corroded so badly it was heating up, and half the house wouldn't work, and when he would fire up the dryer, all the lighting would dim.

They originally denied my request to install a PVC box where the wiring went through the wall. He told me the only option was to remove the drywall inside the house and reroute all the branch circuits.

I told him, "If the HO either can't afford it, won't do it, or the structure does not allow it ( I didn't know what was on the interior of that wall, could have been a kitchen for all I knew), then a potentially dangerous situation is going to go uncorrected. So you would rather have a known danger, than allow a J box. Now suddenly San Bruno doesn't surprise me at all". That's verbatim what I told him. After I reminded him that PG$E is currently the most hated organization in California, precisely because of what he was doing.

Called me back the next day and said, "I found this exception, it's not in the GreenBook, but you can use the PVC J Box".

Maybe they respond to being insulted.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

This is what they originally told me I couldn’t do.

 

[brycenesbitt]

That's about the sum of it.....

Light the buildings on fire it is.
Unless the buildings catch fire without me, because the paperwork burden was too high to do better.

"Now suddenly San Bruno doesn't surprise me at all".

 

[Birken Vogt]

What was wrong about the solution you posted the picture of there? Some spec of theirs?

Because of PG$E's inflexibility, that is what ends up happening a lot.

The panel I did the other week, was corroded so badly it was heating up, and half the house wouldn't work, and when he would fire up the dryer, all the lighting would dim.

They originally denied my request to install a PVC box where the wiring went through the wall. He told me the only option was to remove the drywall inside the house and reroute all the branch circuits.

I told him, "If the HO either can't afford it, won't do it, or the structure does not allow it ( I didn't know what was on the interior of that wall, could have been a kitchen for all I knew), then a potentially dangerous situation is going to go uncorrected. So you would rather have a known danger, than allow a J box. Now suddenly San Bruno doesn't surprise me at all". That's verbatim what I told him. After I reminded him that PG$E is currently the most hated organization in California, precisely because of what he was doing.

Called me back the next day and said, "I found this exception, it's not in the GreenBook, but you can use the PVC J Box".

Maybe they respond to being insulted.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

What was wrong about the solution you posted the picture of there? Some spec of theirs?

The edge of that square pvc box intrudes into the 12” horizontal clearance zone. But they allowed it as it was a “sealed box”, ie, they would not approve a piece of gutter.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I asked that exact question on another job, and it took three months for
the final answer to be "no", "there is no flexibility in the standards".

An electrician advocacy group is working to petition PG&E to alter the rule, to officially allow some flexibility, but don't hold your breath as carbon dioxide poisoning is likely. May 16th meeting with PG&E on that.

There is some sort of rehab provision in the green book that is less restrictive, just a page or two away from the main part, but I don't remember what it allows.

 

[brycenesbitt]

There is some sort of rehab provision in the [PG&E] green book that is less restrictive, just a page or two away from the main part, but I don't remember what it allows.

PG&E works as hard as possible to make it as hard as possible.

The issue is "no joints, fittings or couplings"

 

[Jraef]

My utilities used to allow the gas regulator vent top be located near/ under the electric meter, my house was built this way in the ear!y 60sOver the years their standards changed and they required 36" horizontal distance between the vent and meter.

About 15 years ago I came home and found the gas company had install a PVC extension on their regulator vent to move it away from the meter.

Of course this did nothing for the working clearance issue, but no one was complaining about that.

This is basically what we have with our combined utility, PG&E (Pacific Gas and Electric). First off, they say that NEC working clearance doesn’t apply to their meters, and they say that meters are not a source of ignition. So they used to only require 12” of clearance between gas and electric meters, but recently amended it to have that 12” to be just to the SIDES of the gas meter, to a height of 10ft, for switching devices, EXCEPT for the gas meter vent, which must be 36” radius from the vent opening with nothing electrical (except conduits)



I just went through this when I added solar, because it reset everything new and my existing electric meter, which had complied to the old rule, no longer did under the new inspection. Had to move the electric.

 

[brycenesbitt]

This is basically what we have with our combined utility, PG&E (Pacific Gas and Electric). First off, they say that NEC working clearance doesn’t apply to their meters, and they say that meters are not a source of ignition. So they used to only require 12” of clearance between gas and electric meters

EXCEPT for cluster gas meters.

 

[kwired]

But you still have the dedicated equipment space violation. All the POCO near me have Gas meter restriction within the 3ft measurement similar to that shown.

I'm not seeing much for safety reasons to have such wide working space for a gas meter, unless I am misinterpreting do they really need six feet wide working space when they typically would shut the main valve off if doing any work that involves opening the line? I have a hard time convincing customers they need 30 inches minimum for electrical equipment that often is opened and worked in while energized.

 

[jim dungar]

I'm not seeing much for safety reasons to have such wide working space for a gas meter, unless I am misinterpreting do they really need six feet wide working space when they typically would shut the main valve off if doing any work that involves opening the line? I have a hard time convincing customers they need 30 inches minimum for electrical equipment that often is opened and worked in while energized.

I am guessing their space has nothing to do with working clearance, but rather is to move ignition sources away from the gas regulator venting. They don't want an over pressure event to feed gas fumes into the electrical conduits. This is why the pressure vent is put outdoors rather than inside at the point of usage.

 

[brycenesbitt]

I just went through this when I added solar, because it reset everything new and my existing electric meter, which had complied to the old rule, no longer did under the new inspection. Had to move the electric.

Utility Bulletin: TD-7001M-B010 Publication Date: 12/01/2022 Effective Date: 12/01/2022
Was what you quoted. ONLY good for retrofits ONLY for single family homes.

But please tell more stories. A group of us are meeting with the regulatory team that wrote TD-7001M-B010, meeting on May 16 2025. We'd love to know more about all the incidents and fires that lead to these rules, especially for retrofits. Never say San Bruno.

 

[brycenesbitt]

I am guessing their space has nothing to do with working clearance, but rather is to move ignition sources away from the gas regulator venting. They don't want an over pressure event to feed gas fumes into the electrical conduits. This is why the pressure vent is put outdoors rather than inside at the point of usage.

 

[jaggedben]

View attachment 2577371

Done without a permit or PG&E approval, most likely.

Doesn't look like a 125A meter socket.