Microgrid with generator?

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Enphase is microinverters and the grid profiles need to be updated one by one for each microinverter by the Envoy. It's definitely slower to change than systems with one inverter. Also as an AC system it presents very different issues than the DC coupled Generac.
This is true but it's a set and forget application. Once the microinverters are provisioned with the grid profile, tarrif, etc . .. then they are set (~30 seconds). We only change grid profiles to test commissioning of new batteries, etc . . .
 
My understanding of the failure mode is that when the PV array is producing more power than used locally, it will try to 'export ' power to the generator...which cannot absorb it. The system voltage climbs until something shuts down or fails.

But if the inverter is capable of guaranteeing 0 export, doesn't this solve the problem?

AFAIK there is no physics reason that PV and generators cannot be used together, but rather a failure in the design of standard PV systems to function correctly with standard generators.

Jon

Grid-tied inverter export limiting response time is on the order of seconds while the time it takes to damage a generator from backfeed can be a couple of orders of magnitude shorter. Export limiting function in grid-tied inverters are not designed to handle fast changes that don't matter for energy metering but can be critical for protection purposes.
 
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Yes my setup is Enphase. They recently started offering generator integration/support with the (~$1300) Enpower Smart Switch including grid-sensing generators that are triggered "on" by the Switch when power goes out. It's a pretty slick MID with it's own Neutral Forming Transformer with a ton of advanced features (like 4 circuit PCS, load shedding, PV shedding, "Power Start" for dynamic surge management, and the generator integration mentioned above). Unfortunately I would need an MPU to get the switch installed - out of budget :(

I'm struggling to think of a reason you'd need a MPU upgrade to install the switch.

I was looking for a workaround without this Switch but looks like there isn't one.

Yeah, any self-engineered work around with the same capabilities would cost a ton more in time and money.:cool:
 
Yes my setup is Enphase. They recently started offering generator integration/support with the (~$1300) Enpower Smart Switch including grid-sensing generators that are triggered "on" by the Switch when power goes out. It's a pretty slick MID with it's own Neutral Forming Transformer with a ton of advanced features (like 4 circuit PCS, load shedding, PV shedding, "Power Start" for dynamic surge management, and the generator integration mentioned above). Unfortunately I would need an MPU to get the switch installed - out of budget :(

I was looking for a workaround without this Switch but looks like there isn't one.

Enpower generator support is only available with EnCharge batteries so the minimum total cost for generator support is much higher than $1300 and it will only use generator for charging batteries and will not run loads when batteries are near or fully charged. It was a very disappointing finding as I was considering upgrading to iQ8 with Enpower. It seem all solar inverter vendors are focused on pushing batteries.
 
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Enpower generator support is only available with EnCharge batteries so the minimum total cost for generator support is much higher than $1300 and it will only use generator for charging batteries not running loads. ....

It's incorrect that it won't run also loads with the generator. However it is correct that it is not designed for running PV and generator together without batteries. I think the batteries are really needed as a buffer to avoid the issues synchro described. That is unless the load is substantially guaranteed to be constantly greater than the PV output, which is possible in larger facilities but pretty much never in a residential setting.
 
It's incorrect that it won't run also loads with the generator.

I should have been more clear that I was talking about when batteries are near or fully charged as generator gets turned off. I have updated my post with the clarification.
 
I'm struggling to think of a reason you'd need a MPU upgrade to install the switch.

My (main) options are Whole Home or Partial Home Backup with that switch. I could do self-consumption of TOU profiles with it as well, but that I can do with my current Envoy without the cost of the Switch + installation.

So then WHB or PHB? The quick route would be WHB and install the switch in between the meter and MP. I would then need 4 contactors installed and configured to "Load Shed" the heaviest loads that our current ESS can't support. If I go PHB then I would need to install a new critical loads SP and move those critical loads over to it. Based on the real estate available on that MP wall, the (3' high) Enpower install requires relocating the MP. At that point, we would just replace the 40 year old 100/125 GE load center with a 200/225 panel (maybe derated so I can add more PV). The electrician mentioned it would be roughly the same cost for either WHB or PHB option (give or take a couple hundred bucks). All out of budget right now. Those solar trackers really cut into that reserve :O J/K: I don't have those although they're a very cool option.
 
I wanted to thank you all for expanding my understanding of the interaction between PV systems and generators.

-Jon
Heck, I’m still a little confused on some specifics..
From a utility perspective if it passes anti-is landing tests it’s good to go.
But from a personal perspective it’s one of those situations where I want to go with jaggedben and work with him for a month or two to see the different configurations and setups..
It’s just a loooong commute.
 
Heck, I’m still a little confused on some specifics..
From a utility perspective if it passes anti-is landing tests it’s good to go.
But from a personal perspective it’s one of those situations where I want to go with jaggedben and work with him for a month or two to see the different configurations and setups..
It’s just a loooong commute.
We can carpool, I'm quitting school and heading up next weekend to start my real learning :)
 
But from a personal perspective it’s one of those situations where I want to go with jaggedben and work with him for a month or two to see the different configurations and setups..

If he starts a school, I'm in. Not the forum for it, but I am strongly considering a DIY solar pergola installation.

-Jon
 
Why would you want any other behavior?

Cheers, Wayne

Several reasons but mainly because I want to minimize battery capacity, avoid frequent cycling of batteries and eliminate any chance battery charge getting low enough to cause generator turn on at night.
 
Several reasons but mainly because I want to minimize battery capacity, avoid frequent cycling of batteries and eliminate any chance battery charge getting low enough to cause generator turn on at night.
Sounds like a control problem that is quite dependent on the relative sizes of the various powers (generator peak power, PV peak power, and peak daytime/nighttime demand) and energy reservoir sizes (average daily PV generation, battery size, and average daily/nightly consumption).

For example, if the generator peak power is large relative to the peak load and to the battery size, then it would be enough to ensure the batteries get recharged from the generator between sundown and the start of quiet hours [not sure if Enphase offers that control option]. That would let you use the battery for microgrid balancing during the day to capture the maximum PV generation.

Is this for off grid? I expect most grid-tied solutions not to be too focused on optimizing the behavior during multi-day outages.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Sounds like a control problem that is quite dependent on the relative sizes of the various powers (generator peak power, PV peak power, and peak daytime/nighttime demand) and energy reservoir sizes (average daily PV generation, battery size, and average daily/nightly consumption).

For example, if the generator peak power is large relative to the peak load and to the battery size, then it would be enough to ensure the batteries get recharged from the generator between sundown and the start of quiet hours [not sure if Enphase offers that control option]. That would let you use the battery for microgrid balancing during the day to capture the maximum PV generation.

Is this for off grid? I expect most grid-tied solutions not to be too focused on optimizing the behavior during multi-day outages.

Cheers, Wayne


No interest in going off grid. I like your suggestion for Enphase and I hope they take it to make the generator support more flexible. As you mentioned there are many scenarios depending on the relative sizes of various components and user preferences.
 
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If he starts a school, I'm in. Not the forum for it, but I am strongly considering a DIY solar pergola installation.

-Jon
Something we learned about PV on a pergola is that you may want your racking to attach to every timber. If you don't, over time the dead load on some timbers and not on others can cause the loaded ones to warp out of alignment with the unloaded ones. That was an expensive lesson for us.
 
I have a newly installed grid-tied solar PV system with microinverters. We have a gas powered (Honda EU7000is) inverter generator that also back-feeds the main panel to the house on a manual transfer switch.

During a utility outage - if the generator is wired upstream from the microinverters and powered up they should 'see' a new voltage/frequency source and turn on correct ? If yes, and microinverters are set to "grid no-export", what happens when the PV panels start making more power? Same microinverter limiting function as with utility power? Would this damage the generator?

I assume the generator hardly needs to be running at that point if the PV is producing, just enough power to provide VAC/freq reference to the microinverters?
One thing you should probably look at is the economics. The primary reason for grid tied PV is to offset your electric bill. How often and for how long does the grid go down at your place? What would be the contribution to your bottom line from PV running during those outages? How much would it cost you to build in the capacity for your PV and generator to play nice with each other? Do the math; if outages are infrequent and of short duration it may not be worth it.
 
SocalEdison (SCE) is our provider and they pay very little for customer generated power. I would rather export nothing than send it to them when they make 70% margin's off of my PV generation. Our main purpose for PV deployment here is Energy Independence.
Why do you care? It's not like it costs you anything if you export power rather than throttling back your PV. Like I said in my previous response, look at the economics. If it costs you money to stop your PV from exporting power, then why do it? Sometimes sticking it to the man is really sticking it to yourself.
 
Why do you care? It's not like it costs you anything if you export power rather than throttling back your PV. Like I said in my previous response, look at the economics. If it costs you money to stop your PV from exporting power, then why do it? Sometimes sticking it to the man is really sticking it to yourself.
This is true. GoldDigger mentioned something similar "As long as you are not actually losing money by it, net export is better for our enjoyment of our planet. (The planet itself will be fine regardless of what we do to destroy the environment.)"

I guess my base for the decision was petty, maybe even small-minded. The bigger picture, our ecology for one, is certainly more important. I do have a respect and appreciation for SCE as they have been a solid supplier of quality, reliable power (even here in CA :O )

This thread was opened not necessarily for the economical aspect but how can I leverage my existing logistics to run in a potential outage?

In any event, I appreciate the knowledge, integrity, and direct nature of this forum and the diversity of it's members. I get a lot more learning than I bargained for.
 
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