knaack134
Member
- Location
- Chicago IL
When you specify wire type what exactly does coated or uncoated mean. I am assuming that a THHN conductor would be considered coated. Any thoughts?
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Mike Holt's voltage drop calculator.
- Thread starter knaack134
- Start date
- Status
Coating = Conductor Plating
Coating = Conductor Plating
knaack134,
While I am not intimately familiar with Mike Holt’s voltage drop calculator, the available selections of either coated or uncoated copper conductors for voltage drop usually refer to the fact that both coated and uncoated conductors have differing resistances. This can be found in Table 8 (Chapter 9) of the NEC.
My understanding is:
Uncoated copper is typical building conductors such as THHN, XHHW, etc. (bright copper with no plating)
Coated copper will be plated copper conductors which are typical on high temperature conductors and some specialty conductors. Often seen on stranded high temp conductors (but this plating is not limited to stranded and is not limited to hi temp). The coating could be nickel or even silver plate. (I have heard of tin plated copper but have no direct info to back this up…) ...I have seen older cloth woven jacketed building conductors (I have no idea what the insulation type is...) in 50s era government installations with coated copper conductors...
My understanding is that the plating (coating) can provide superior termination capabilities for the conductors, but the tradeoff is the increased conductor resistance. This should be reflected in your review of the resistance values for coated and uncoated copper in Table 8.
I hope this is helpful…
mweaver
Coating = Conductor Plating
knaack134,
While I am not intimately familiar with Mike Holt’s voltage drop calculator, the available selections of either coated or uncoated copper conductors for voltage drop usually refer to the fact that both coated and uncoated conductors have differing resistances. This can be found in Table 8 (Chapter 9) of the NEC.
My understanding is:
Uncoated copper is typical building conductors such as THHN, XHHW, etc. (bright copper with no plating)
Coated copper will be plated copper conductors which are typical on high temperature conductors and some specialty conductors. Often seen on stranded high temp conductors (but this plating is not limited to stranded and is not limited to hi temp). The coating could be nickel or even silver plate. (I have heard of tin plated copper but have no direct info to back this up…) ...I have seen older cloth woven jacketed building conductors (I have no idea what the insulation type is...) in 50s era government installations with coated copper conductors...
My understanding is that the plating (coating) can provide superior termination capabilities for the conductors, but the tradeoff is the increased conductor resistance. This should be reflected in your review of the resistance values for coated and uncoated copper in Table 8.
I hope this is helpful…
mweaver
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knaack134
Member
- Location
- Chicago IL
Thanks alot.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
I agree with your first statement; however, my understanding is that the coated wire was a .001" tinning that was for the purpose of making up the soldered connections. The diameter of the conductor was actually reduced by .002" and then a .001" thickness of tinning was added to get the same diameter. Therefore the resistance per 1000' was a little higher. Since my understanding is different, I would like to see some verification as to which one of us is correct. :smile:
Charlie,
My understanding on the Table 8 column for coated copper came from a long ago verbal conversation with an individual I considered quite wise.
I took his explanation to be fact (for all these years) due to the authoritative nature of the source …
As noted above, I am unable to provide any documentation to substantiate my understanding…
As you, I am quite interested in verification which would clarify this for me.
Hopefully someone here can oblige…
… but I am thinking you may already know …
… and if so, would you share that with me, please…
mweaver
My understanding on the Table 8 column for coated copper came from a long ago verbal conversation with an individual I considered quite wise.
I took his explanation to be fact (for all these years) due to the authoritative nature of the source
… As noted above, I am unable to provide any documentation to substantiate my understanding…
As you, I am quite interested in verification which would clarify this for me.
Hopefully someone here can oblige…
… but I am thinking you may already know …
… and if so, would you share that with me, please…
mweaver
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
The problem is that our sources are similar and I don't know for certain. When I first got into the trade, the instructor was the one who told the class that is was tinned. I have always had the utmost respect for his knowledge since he was considerably older than me, had retired from the IBEW, was the Chief Electrical Inspector for Indianapolis, and was a Distribution Engineer for IPL. I was trained by him in the classroom as well as for my job when I started with IPL in 1969. :smile:
Hopefully someone can solidify this for us...
Hopefully someone can solidify this for us...
Well darn... (I was kinda banking on your clarifying me on this ...)
I would like to know for certain, now...
Maybe there is a cable engineer out there (...or a friend of a friend of a cable engineer) who can set us straight for sure...
mweaver
Hopefully someone can solidify this for us...
Well darn... (I was kinda banking on your clarifying me on this
...)I would like to know for certain, now...
Maybe there is a cable engineer out there (...or a friend of a friend of a cable engineer) who can set us straight for sure...
mweaver
jeremysterling
Senior Member
- Location
- Austin, TX
Description of DLO cable:
Extra flexible Tinned Copper conductors with a suitable separator on sizes 4 Awg and larger.
I'm trying to recall the purpose of the tinning, and I'm thinking (guessing) it has more to do with crimping than soldering.
Extra flexible Tinned Copper conductors with a suitable separator on sizes 4 Awg and larger.
I'm trying to recall the purpose of the tinning, and I'm thinking (guessing) it has more to do with crimping than soldering.
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Tinned Copper
Tinned Copper
Quoted from Alan Wire Company’s website regarding tinned copper wire…
” Solid soft tinned copper wires (sizes 14 AWG solid through 4/0 AWG stranded) are used primarily in applications involving current flow, corrosion resistance, or the need to solder the wire to some component. The addition of a tin coating facilitates the soldering process with only a small price differential over bare copper. A tin coating is also desirable in applications where operating temperatures exceed 100? C up to 150? C. At such temperatures the corrosion resistance of bare copper declines and the tin coating acts to protect the surface of the bare copper.
Single-strand conductors can be tin coated as soft, medium hard or hard wire. The standard minimum thickness of tin coating is 40 micro-inches. "
The info was found here:
http://www.alanwire.com/awscripts/makspecs.cgi?ntype=TINNED
So far, Charlie it appears we are both correct to a degree … (and you have that in writing, now for your files...
I have found nothing regarding nickel or silver plate (as I was originally informed long ago...) ... only tin plate as you noted. Not that I am keeping score, but I believe this makes you much more correct than me ...
I am sure there is more to know about this and I am still wanting to know: Where in the world is a cable engineer when you need one ?
Jeremy, thanks for the input, also
mweaver
Tinned Copper
Quoted from Alan Wire Company’s website regarding tinned copper wire…
” Solid soft tinned copper wires (sizes 14 AWG solid through 4/0 AWG stranded) are used primarily in applications involving current flow, corrosion resistance, or the need to solder the wire to some component. The addition of a tin coating facilitates the soldering process with only a small price differential over bare copper. A tin coating is also desirable in applications where operating temperatures exceed 100? C up to 150? C. At such temperatures the corrosion resistance of bare copper declines and the tin coating acts to protect the surface of the bare copper.
Single-strand conductors can be tin coated as soft, medium hard or hard wire. The standard minimum thickness of tin coating is 40 micro-inches. "
The info was found here:
http://www.alanwire.com/awscripts/makspecs.cgi?ntype=TINNED
So far, Charlie it appears we are both correct to a degree
… (and you have that in writing, now for your files...I have found nothing regarding nickel or silver plate (as I was originally informed long ago...) ... only tin plate as you noted. Not that I am keeping score, but I believe this makes you much more correct than me
...I am sure there is more to know about this and I am still wanting to know: Where in the world is a cable engineer when you need one ?
Jeremy, thanks for the input, also
mweaver
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mivey
Senior Member
Southwire says the tin coating is also used to protect the copper from the sulfur in sulfur-based rubber insulation. Lead alloy is also commonly used to protect against other incompatible materials. Nickel can be used as a coating in copper conductors rated for extremely high temperatures (like 250 Celsius). The oxide on the surface of the aluminum wire normally protects it from chemicals.
Nickel, Silver and Tin plating
Nickel, Silver and Tin plating
Mivey,
I am guessing your statement: " Southwire says the tin coating is also used to protect the copper from the sulfur in sulfur-based rubber insulation " accounts for the fact that I do remember seeing (early in my career...) cloth covered rubber jacketed 500 & 350 kcmil copper conductors with bright plating, which was (no doubt, probably...) tin coating. Thanks for sharing this, it kind of calrifies old memories for me personally... (my understanding is that rubber is not really used anymore for conductor insulation... what we call rubber today is a synthetic thermoset plastic product ...)
On another note... I did find references to Nickel, Silver and Tin plating on varius high temp conductors here: http://www.tanstaafl-cable.com/products.htm
… I’m still looking for that cable engineer… (maybe there is no such a thing …)
mweaver
Nickel, Silver and Tin plating
Mivey,
I am guessing your statement: " Southwire says the tin coating is also used to protect the copper from the sulfur in sulfur-based rubber insulation " accounts for the fact that I do remember seeing (early in my career...) cloth covered rubber jacketed 500 & 350 kcmil copper conductors with bright plating, which was (no doubt, probably...) tin coating. Thanks for sharing this, it kind of calrifies old memories for me personally... (my understanding is that rubber is not really used anymore for conductor insulation... what we call rubber today is a synthetic thermoset plastic product ...)
On another note... I did find references to Nickel, Silver and Tin plating on varius high temp conductors here: http://www.tanstaafl-cable.com/products.htm
… I’m still looking for that cable engineer… (maybe there is no such a thing …)
mweaver
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charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
The major reason for my original participation in the forum was to keep me sharp on the code. As with teaching where the teacher learns more than the students, I continue to learn and stretch my knowledge. I take away far more than I contribute, thank you everyone. :smile:
marine electrical
marine electrical
They don't solder too much in the marine industry any more but the tinned stranded cable is still popular and considered superior, especially for battery cables. DLO is popular in the engine room where cables get close to the bilge.
No question, the tinned is more resistant to corrosion.
Dick
marine electrical
They don't solder too much in the marine industry any more but the tinned stranded cable is still popular and considered superior, especially for battery cables. DLO is popular in the engine room where cables get close to the bilge.
No question, the tinned is more resistant to corrosion.
Dick
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