Military style wage scale

George Stolz · Dec 26, 2005

Back in high school, I kicked around the idea of enlisting in one of the armed forces, and talked to recruiters. One of the recruiters, when he was selling me on the job, whipped out a pay grade matrix, and showed me how much I would make as I "worked my way up the ranks."

I never enlisted, but that stuck with me.

Has anyone ever considered creating a matrix for pay according to determining factors, and using it?

It was an idea I kicked around for a while, and abandoned. Some of the military talk here lately got me thinking again.

Here's a list of pro's and con's I had written out before scrapping the idea. I was looking to create the system so that more accurate performance reports could be given to employees, on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. The catch is that detailed reports can't be given to employees under traditional payroll methods, because employees can deduce their fellow's wages.

Under piecework, we still submit timecards so that the office can keep accurate job costing. This information could be used to generate reports to boost morale, or as a wake-up call that 'big brother' is watching.

Pros

Detailed job descriptions would aid managers in job evaluations
Wage questions could be answered with a checklist
Overall Rank System would augment Piecework System (Lic. / Non-Lic splits)
Piecework system could be used more specifically, to detail exact performance and pay-outs
Employees would have a longer career goal, more rungs than 2 licenses on the career ladder
Employees would better understand their current role in company, would strive to better themselves
New hires would be started at their license level, first grade, until 3 month & 6 month evaluations demonstrated their performance
Employees that begin to deteriorate after years of employment would simply drop in rank until their performance recovers. Their pay would reduce to their rank plus ?time of service? raise. With written, specific standards and documentation, such discipline wouldn?t be subjective. There would be ?machinery? in place that would dictate the change, to avoid personal involement.
No secrets. In a military system, a certain rank warrants a certain wage. There is no guessing, no secrecy, and lower ranks know what they?re working toward. That?s what would augment the piecework system.

Cons

Defining job descriptions difficult and time consuming
Not automatic - system would require diligence to oversee and execute
Non-licensed personnel in leadership roles would face pay cuts
System may not be very flexible for attracting new hires - a 25 year new-hire might not benefit from system

iwire · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

George, get out of the piece work game.

Find a company that pays by the hour, with incentives for production based on job profit.

Get in, show them what you are worth and than DEMAND to be paid for that ability.

In this area finding someone that is a responsible, reliable, sober, talented, respected, knowledgeable leader is tough. From what I 'know' of you from this forum you either are that person or can be if you put your mind to it.

When we find that type of person it is well worth paying them a respectable wage.

I have refused salary and I would spit in the hand of someone that asked me to work by the piece. To each their own but in my not so humble opinion that is degrading.

George Stolz · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

Thank you, Bob.

Let's disregard the piecework aspect of things for a moment, though. My first post was a long one, and my question was a bit on the fuzzy side.

Must wages be kept confidential? Or would a system that classifies several tiers of each license held be beneficial?

Here's the matrix I made when I was mulling it over.

iwire · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

George your welcome.

My view is strictly as an employee, I have never been the employer.

I have no interest in anyone knowing my wage or having set rules for advancement.

Many things can figure into my wage, various insurances, matching retirement contributions, vacations, personal days, a vehicle or vehicle allowance and of course performance bonuses.

I like the freedom to negotiate my own wage without being tied to a 'matrix'.

growler · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

George, The first thing to understand is that a recruiter's job is to sucker you in and second the military is not a paragon of efficiency. I would advise against modeling any business on the military unless you have a few billion to toss down the rabbit hole. Private enterprise has always been more efficient when it comes to managing money and personnel. I think that you will find that most people leave the military because they don't like the way their lives are managed. In the military the opportunities for advancement are better during a war and out here they are better during a building boom ( supply & demand ) but out here you can negotiate on your own behalf.

George Stolz · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

I too have always been an employee, but enjoy kicking around ideas and suggestions. No business model will perform ideally for two different operations, but the concept that wages are a confidential matter and not to be discussed among employees is fairly universal.

I find it interesting: If an employee is worth "x" amount of money, and that worth can be proven, then why must that amount be held in secrecy?

And are policies in place that prohibit discussion of wages truly effective?

Many things can figure into my wage, various insurances, matching retirement contributions, vacations, personal days, a vehicle or vehicle allowance and of course performance bonuses.

I've found most companies (regardless of the product they sell) have a set bonus package, which is non-negotiable. Insurance, 401k, vacation allowances, and sick days are generally bound by a policy that applies to all employees (and sometimes management). With a set package in place, less time is devoted to keeping straight who gets what, and the payout for such things are more predictable.

That leaves wages and performance bonuses open to negotiation.

I have no interest in anyone knowing my wage or having set rules for advancement.

It's true that without the boundaries of a job description, it's far easier to negotiate for a higher wage. But doesn't this cause a disparity between worth and pay?

For example, a company might hold a high value for a set of skills at a certain moment in time, and over time have less value for those skills. Let's imagine a commercial apprentice in a primarily residential shop. When hired for a specific job, that person has skills that set them apart, and is paid accordingly. Once that work has been completed, the highly paid non-licensed individual would then turn to residential work that they are not well-versed in, and their pay would not jive with their skills and the work at hand.

Now an apprentice is working side-by-side with a license who makes the same amount, but accomplishes more work and can legally operate without supervision.

What do you do?

I like the freedom to negotiate my own wage without being tied to a 'matrix'.

That's a very valid opinion.

George Stolz · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

Originally posted by growler:
out here they are better during a building boom ( supply & demand ) but out here you can negotiate on your own behalf.

I guess being an employee is as much about negotiation skills as it is ability to do the work, then?

iwire · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I find it interesting: If an employee is worth "x" amount of money,

There is so much more to a persons 'worth' than can be spelled out on a sheet of predetermined goals.

And even if you have two people that are equal in 'worth' (if that was possible to determine) one might be a better negotiator at the table.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I've found most companies (regardless of the product they sell) have a set bonus package, which is non-negotiable. Insurance, 401k, vacation allowances, and sick days are generally bound by a policy that applies to all employees (and sometimes management).

That may be true some places and I am sure that is what they all want you to believe as it would be easier to implement. I have always had good luck getting what I want.

Keep in mind most electric shops are not large corporations bulging with polices that can not be changed at will.

You won't know until you try.

It's a free market out there.

Do we all pay the same amount for the same car?

And if you are employee "B" should you bite the hand that feeds by announcing your higher wage to the others?

JMO, Bob

George Stolz · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

Originally posted by iwire:
If employee "A" is happy with $10 per hr but has the same ability of employee "B" who gets $14 per hr as "B" would not accept $10 do you think it is wise for the company to make the rates public.

Do you think it's wise to retain employee "B" if someone could be had for $4/hour less? Wouldn't there be an axe hanging over employee "B"'s head, awaiting a small excuse to drop?

If you believe that is patently unfair then I must say welcome to planet earth.

And if you are employee "B" should you bite the hand that feeds by announcing your higher wage to the others?

Click to expand...

No, there's no interest to "B" in disclosing his pay.

But "A" has an interest, and can easily aquire that information. It's probably best for "A" to take his show on the road, as suggested.

iwire · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

Originally posted by georgestolz:
]Do you think it's wise to retain employee "B" if someone could be had for $4/hour less? Wouldn't there be an axe hanging over employee "B"'s head, awaiting a small excuse to drop?

That is something to keep in mind, no doubt.

It is also good to keep in mind that no one is irreplaceable.

mdshunk · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

Originally posted by georgestolz:
If an employee is worth "x" amount of money, and that worth can be proven, then why must that amount be held in secrecy?

And are policies in place that prohibit discussion of wages truly effective?

Yes, I suppose such policies are effective, but it may surprise you to learn that they are flatly illegal. There have been many court cases in which people were fired for discussion of their wage with other, and the courts gave them back pay from the time they were fired... sometimes several years worth.

e57 · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

OK.... Many states actually have laws about trying to enforce policies created to NOT discuss wages. Although an employer would like to keep them discrete, and like to make you think it's legal for them tp prevent you from doing so, it's impossible to do so anyway, and in many places not enforcable. People talk, and/or have ways of figuring these things out. Being a grown up about it, is another story....

Like iwire said, your wage, or more correctly "Compansation" (Benifits etc.) in most places is negotiable. And likewise, my opinon of "piece work" is simular. "Wage Slavery" However, I do think that wages should be consumate to labor via experiance, qualification, and production for the individual. The methods of determining that wage are varyied and broad... If confined to a matrix, I would be looking for employment elsewhere. And when I do, and have topped out at a company, I look for a higher wage package. It's a supply and demand world. Keep your supply of skills high, and tightly follow the demand for them. You are selling your skills and experiance... Capitolism at its best.

jbwhite · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

I like the idea of a matrix system, if one could be developed, but I see no resemblance between that and the military.

Military pay is functionally based on longevity, not ability. In addition extra pay is given for considerations not work related, like if a person is married, and how many children they have.

I am against pay scales that are based on time served alone. This should be one consideration, but in my opinion, merit pay shops do a better job of rewarding their workers in a fair manner.

The more productive workers should be given the chance to make more money. The rest should either look at how to become more productive, or become comfortable with the current wage.

hardworkingstiff · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

I didn't see an important quality mentioned. Attitude! That is a subjectively judged quality and no matrix in the world will quantify it.

I would agree that a general wage range is in order (and I would believe already exists).

A problem I see is: employee Z does pretty good work and is mostly dependable. Shows up tardy (and groggy) on Mondays (party a little too much), but then gets going well the rest of the week. Occasionally upsets the customer with smart remarks; employee Y is 10 minutes early every day, works great, productive, and the customers love him/her. In the mind of employee Z, he/she does as much work as employee Y and believes they are nuts for showing up 10 minutes early, and the customers should just look at the work and quit being a pain in the butt.

So, you are slammed busy. You need both employees. If you have an open pay policy, your better employee will become disgruntled if employee Z makes the same. You don't have time to baby sit employees about wage disparity. They (employees) always have the privilege of moving on to a better job.

PlnOldRick · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

the problem with a matrix is you will always have your own neo to screw things up.

i know because i usually end up being him.

ty · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

George,

When you're ready to move to the East Coast, let me know.

PlnOldRick · Dec 26, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

Originally posted by ty:
George,

When you're ready to move to the East Coast, let me know.

And if it's florida let me know. i'll meet ya at the border to personaly deliver your "florida kick in the arse"

George Stolz · Dec 27, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

When you're ready to move to the East Coast, let me know.

That place is foreign to me. There aren't mountains to the west, I'd be continually lost.

And if it's florida let me know. i'll meet ya at the border to personaly deliver your "florida kick in the arse"

As sweet as that offer is, I can save some time and money by paying somebody $50 to do the same job, here.

bphgravity · Dec 27, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

I helped to create a pay matrix for a company I worked with several years ago. It was a basic evaluation form with points assigned to each topic of evaluation. A zero meaning no competancy, a 5 meaning master level understanding. There were approx. 10 topics. Three persons, the direct supervisor, project manager, and the department head would each fill out the form. An average for each topic would be established and a total score calculated.

The total number of points fit into a scale listing the pay grade for the corresponding number of points. It worked very well and most of the employees under the new evaluation method apporved of it.

charlie b · Dec 27, 2005

Re: Military style wage scale

Originally posted by jbwhite: Military pay is functionally based on longevity, not ability. In addition extra pay is given for considerations not work related, like if a person is married, and how many children they have.

That is why modeling on the military pay scale is not going to get you what you are after. But to expand on the military pay scale, every person in any of the armed services, be it Navy, Army, Air Force, or Marines, will get exactly the same pay if they hold the same pay grade and if they have been in the service for the same amount of time. The pay grades include the Enlisted ranks of E1 through E9, the Warrant Officer ranks W1 through W5, and the Commissioned Officer ranks O1 through O10.

There are, as jbwhite mentioned, additional considerations that can be paid. They are not classified as "pay," but rather as "allowances." They include "Basic Allowance for Quarters" and "Basic Allowance for Subsistence," along with opportunities for a Per Diem and even for reenlistment bonuses.

So in case the recruiter did not make this clear, you would have gone up the pay scale if, and only if, you had earned promotions along the way from one pay rank to the next higher pay rank. That is the manner in which "job performance" has an influence on pay. A good performer will get the promotion (or so, at least, goes the theory). But a good performance this week and a lesser performance next week will not result in higher pay this week or lower pay next week. I don't see any reasonable way to make this type of pay system work in an environment in which you are trying to reward good performance with cash.

Military style wage scale

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