Mixing of AC Power and Instrumenation wiring in wiring trough

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FaradayFF

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California
Hi All,

What's your take on mixing of 208Volt AC motor circuits and some instrumentation circuits in a wire way? I'm thinking that if the instrumentation circuits pass the power circuits at the right angles, the signal interference might be avoided/minimized. The complication here is that I'm dealing with an existing raceways and just re-pulling some circuits, so I'm trying to prevent modifications to existing wire troughs/conduits.


Thoughts?

Thanks,
EE
 
No, the complication here is that LV cannot be in the same conduit or wiring trough as the 208. At least you could install a divider in the trough but that can't be done with the conduit.

-Hal
 
190703-2106 EDT

Independent of any rule book rules I would not mix critical instrumentation wiring with power wiring.

You need to know about your instrumentation signals and how interference will affect these signals.

.
 
Hi All,

What's your take on mixing of 208Volt AC motor circuits and some instrumentation circuits in a wire way? I'm thinking that if the instrumentation circuits pass the power circuits at the right angles, the signal interference might be avoided/minimized. The complication here is that I'm dealing with an existing raceways and just re-pulling some circuits, so I'm trying to prevent modifications to existing wire troughs/conduits.


Thoughts?

Thanks,
EE

My take is that in most cases it will work just fine, but might not meet code.
 
They can be in the same raceway so long as the insulation level of the conductors is at least as high as the highest voltage. In your case, if the instrumentation wire has 300V rated insulation and your highest voltage is 208V, you are fine.

As to interference, are you using shielded twisted pair instrumentation conductors? If yes, you should be fine for the short distances you will find inside of a control panel. If not, why not?

If any of your "power" conductors are from the OUTPUT of a VFD, they should ALWAYS be kept completely separate from everything else.
 
It’s not just insulation level but be careful with ratings in tests. If the tray is technically PLTC for instance, power conductors in non-limited equipment can’t be mixed in the sane tray without a divider or say innerduct. So if you put motor leads in there, the power limited signaling becomes a Code violation since the test is no longer PLTC.

The usual culprit is Ethernet. Ethernet cable is available in 300 and even 600 V insulation as AWM. It is legal in 508 and 508A panels as those are Listed assemblies and that’s where AWM comes in. But in general use outside a panel, they must be separated. Testing has shown that Ethernet in particularly can be strapped to welding robots, VFD lines, etc., due to massive filtering against low frequency interference and 30 dB SNIR. But since capacitance requirements make #22-24 a requirement, it fails the UL requirement of nothing smaller than #18. This is unlike traditional signal protocols (RS-485 and similar) and analog voltage loops which are much lower frequency and subject to interference without shielded cable. This is for copper Ethernet. ADSS (all dielectric) fiber is if course not a problem running in energized spaces.

A simple solution is to put a divider in the tray but honestly nobody ever maintains it that way over time and cost wise a simple 2-4” instrument tray is just as cheap.

That being said if you eschew Code, lots of industrial plants do this all the time particularly with Ethernet since it is basically immune even with just standard UTP. Inside panels it’s even worse. Few panel builders pay any attention to interference or even proper grounding. Allen Bradley literally wire ties signal conductors with power bundles in their factory built panels with Ethernet, 4-20 mA, VFDs, you name it, with no problems. But be careful to follow grounding rules and shield cable where you need it. This means ground the shield at one end only and the most effective end is at the load. Twisted pair is inherently shielded against electrical but not magnetic fields. Minimize signal loops and avoid ground loops. Basic low interference construction like this works just fine. On analogs be aware that some manufacturers, particularly Allen Bradley, do not have isolated analogs. In that case either short the return sides together to eliminate interference or else use external optical isolators, or buy better cards.


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