I am looking into drawing up electrical plans for a cabin structure at a state park. The cabin will be built and wired, then moved on to the site. The bid specs tell us to submit a wiring plan to be approved by an engineer. These plans must meet the national mobile home builders association criteria. Does the NEC (NFPA 70) cover this or is there a special codebook that I need to be looking at? Thank you for your knowledge.
mobile home codes
- Thread starter apj
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- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: mobile home codes
The word that bothers me is "approved." If you are to complete a design, and then hand it to an engineer, then there are limits on what that engineer can do with them. The engineer can review them and state that they are acceptable. If that is what is meant by "approved," then I would not have an issue.
But the context that I normally associate with "approval" of drawings is that the engineer would sign and seal the wiring plan. That would be a violation of law and a violation of professional ethics. That is why I am curious as to what the bid spec actually says.
This statement is a bit disconcerting, but maybe I am interpreting it wrong. If you have the bid spec handy, can you clarify what it actually says here?
The word that bothers me is "approved." If you are to complete a design, and then hand it to an engineer, then there are limits on what that engineer can do with them. The engineer can review them and state that they are acceptable. If that is what is meant by "approved," then I would not have an issue.
But the context that I normally associate with "approval" of drawings is that the engineer would sign and seal the wiring plan. That would be a violation of law and a violation of professional ethics. That is why I am curious as to what the bid spec actually says.
Re: mobile home codes
I believe what is meant charlieb is that we pay an engineer to review and find acceptable the wiring plans, then put his stamp on them for approval. I do not have the specs in hand as of yet, but I will have them shortly.
No georgestolz, people will rent them like a campsite. I believe this may qualify as a manufactured home, reading the definition in article 550, these are 14x28 (392 sq. ft.).
hurk27, if you read this I would like to see a full copy of the HUD electrical requirements.
Thank you all.
[ November 28, 2005, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: apj ]
I believe what is meant charlieb is that we pay an engineer to review and find acceptable the wiring plans, then put his stamp on them for approval. I do not have the specs in hand as of yet, but I will have them shortly.
No georgestolz, people will rent them like a campsite. I believe this may qualify as a manufactured home, reading the definition in article 550, these are 14x28 (392 sq. ft.).
hurk27, if you read this I would like to see a full copy of the HUD electrical requirements.
Thank you all.
[ November 28, 2005, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: apj ]
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: mobile home codes
apj,
As a registed engineer, I cannot affix my seal to any drawings/design that is not prepared under my direct supervision. I can review and comment on drawings/designs prepared by others, but I cannot seal them.
While article 550 of the NEC (NFPA70) covers the final installation of a manufactured home, the NEC does not address it's actual construction. A fine print note (FPN) to NEC 550.1 suggests NFPA501-2003 as a resource for manufactured housing.
apj,
As a registed engineer, I cannot affix my seal to any drawings/design that is not prepared under my direct supervision. I can review and comment on drawings/designs prepared by others, but I cannot seal them.
While article 550 of the NEC (NFPA70) covers the final installation of a manufactured home, the NEC does not address it's actual construction. A fine print note (FPN) to NEC 550.1 suggests NFPA501-2003 as a resource for manufactured housing.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: mobile home codes
It is not as commonly understood as I might like, but an engineer's "seal and signature" does not mean, "I have reviewed this document and I approve what it contains." Nor does it say "I agree (or certify) that this meets code." An engineer's seal and signature means one thing, and one thing only: "This work was done by me or under my supervision." I cannot say that if the document was prepared by someone who works for some other company and who was not working under my supervision. I cannot seal a document if I had no influence on its development, and if the first time I see the document is when it is completed.
[ November 28, 2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
My point exactly.
It is not as commonly understood as I might like, but an engineer's "seal and signature" does not mean, "I have reviewed this document and I approve what it contains." Nor does it say "I agree (or certify) that this meets code." An engineer's seal and signature means one thing, and one thing only: "This work was done by me or under my supervision." I cannot say that if the document was prepared by someone who works for some other company and who was not working under my supervision. I cannot seal a document if I had no influence on its development, and if the first time I see the document is when it is completed.
[ November 28, 2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: mobile home codes
I find this very confusing.
Obviously Charlie and Jim know their jobs.
What troubles me is it is standard practice (actually required) for us to turn a set of fire alarm drawings into the fire department for 'approval' and when I get them back they indeed have a new bright red seal with an engineers name on it.
Most fire departments here require us to work directly from this set stamped by the fire departments engineer.
Are the rules different state to state?
[ November 28, 2005, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
I find this very confusing.
Obviously Charlie and Jim know their jobs.
What troubles me is it is standard practice (actually required) for us to turn a set of fire alarm drawings into the fire department for 'approval' and when I get them back they indeed have a new bright red seal with an engineers name on it.
Most fire departments here require us to work directly from this set stamped by the fire departments engineer.
Are the rules different state to state?
[ November 28, 2005, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: mobile home codes
Bob,
Yes, rules, regulations and responsibilities do typically vary from state to state. This is not drastically different than the concept and function behind an electrician's "master" license. And also, the "seal approval" by a specific governing body for a set of submitted documents is a still different set of rules and procedure.
Bob,
Yes, rules, regulations and responsibilities do typically vary from state to state. This is not drastically different than the concept and function behind an electrician's "master" license. And also, the "seal approval" by a specific governing body for a set of submitted documents is a still different set of rules and procedure.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: mobile home codes
I've not seen a "bright red seal" before. When I had a PE license in Massachusetts (I allowed it to expire), the seal was not bright red. I may still have it at home. If I can find it and create an image of it, I'll try to post the image.
What I wonder is whether we are talking about the word "seal" in the same context. If you have one of your approved plans nearby, can you describe the seal? Does it, for example, show the PE license number of the engineer? Or is this perhaps some type of Fire Marshall's approval seal?
As to the question of one PE sealing the work done by another person, this was taken from this MA State web site (I added bold emphasis):
I've not seen a "bright red seal" before. When I had a PE license in Massachusetts (I allowed it to expire), the seal was not bright red. I may still have it at home. If I can find it and create an image of it, I'll try to post the image.
What I wonder is whether we are talking about the word "seal" in the same context. If you have one of your approved plans nearby, can you describe the seal? Does it, for example, show the PE license number of the engineer? Or is this perhaps some type of Fire Marshall's approval seal?
As to the question of one PE sealing the work done by another person, this was taken from this MA State web site (I added bold emphasis):
I think all States will have similar requirements. Applying the PE seal represents that the work was done by, or under the supervision of, the registered PE whose name appears on the seal. Any other use is a violation of both state law and of professional ethics, as I stated before.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: mobile home codes
It must be considering the info from you and Jim.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: mobile home codes
APJ I e-mailed you the info you requested.
I don't think the building you are talking about would fall under the HUD regulations, It sounds more like a modular type structure which is built for the intended purpose of being installed to a permanent foundation or the equivalent, A manufactured dwelling is one that will built upon and remain upon a metal frame with which axles and tries will allow it to be moved again at a latter date, A modular can be built upon a frame or not, but in either case, it will be intended to be removed from this frame at the site of permanent placing. A manufactured dwelling would have to have a HUD inspection, A modular would have to have a local inspection.
APJ I e-mailed you the info you requested.
I don't think the building you are talking about would fall under the HUD regulations, It sounds more like a modular type structure which is built for the intended purpose of being installed to a permanent foundation or the equivalent, A manufactured dwelling is one that will built upon and remain upon a metal frame with which axles and tries will allow it to be moved again at a latter date, A modular can be built upon a frame or not, but in either case, it will be intended to be removed from this frame at the site of permanent placing. A manufactured dwelling would have to have a HUD inspection, A modular would have to have a local inspection.
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