More bath outlet questions, 210.52D

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e57

e57

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So say an Architect gave you an elevation for an outlet at the basin as 8" AFF (Typ to all other outlets) to the side of the basin cabinet. Would you question this? It says, within 3' of the basin, nothing about what direction. Now the real question! If you were, or are an Inspector, would you measure it?


210.52(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one wall receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop.
Section 210.52(D) requires one wall receptacle in each bathroom of a dwelling unit to be installed adjacent (within 36 in.) to the washbasin. This receptacle is required in addition to any receptacle that may be part of any luminaire or medicine cabinet. If there is more than one washbasin, a receptacle outlet is required adjacent to each basin location. If the basins are in close proximity, one receptacle outlet installed between the two basins might satisfy this requirement. ~~~~~~~
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There is a new exception in the 2005 that permits the receptalce to be located in the side or face of the basin cabinet if not more than 12" below the countertop. This allowance was not permitted under the 2002 NEC.
 
I think you are in "Gray Haven" here. The code is not explicit in its language, but I think it is clear in its intent. The intent of that receptacle is to plug in an electric razor or a hair dryer or some such grooming tool. To require the user to bend down, in order to plug in a hair dryer, is unreasonable. Is it a code violation? Hard to say. I wish it were. You can infer from the exception that the code authors wanted the outlet to be close to the basin (i.e., not more than 12 inches below the basin, if installed on the side of a cabinet).

I don't think a standard hair dryer's power cord would reach from 8" AFF to a user's head. I know my razor's cord would not. I suggest talking the architect into changing the design. But I can't give you an NEC requirement to help with that discussion.
 
No question I would require that a receptacle be installed where a practacle person would put it not where this archetict wanted it. Code article? Let's try 110.3(A)(8)
 
Andrew,
110.3(A)(8) is a real stretch especially when you read 90.1(B).
(B) Adequacy This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.
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Don
 
This is a perfect example of the problem that arises when the code panel doesn't put down on the paper what they mean. The exception to 210.52(D) shows that it's undisputable that they don't intend the plug to be allowed to be lower than 12" below the countertop under any circumstance. Why they wouldn't make that clear in the main body of 210.52(D) is a puzzle.

It could be argued that anywhere below the sink top level is not allowed unless you are using the exception in 210.52(D)x.

If you look at 210.52(C)(5)x you see that the 12" below the countertop allowance is intended as an exception only allowed on the side of the kitchen cabinet. If you're not on the side of the cabinet, 210.52(C)(5) says that the plugs "shall be located above, but not more than 20 inches above, the countertop".

And yet the code panel didn't include the language "shall be located above" into 210.52(D). They obviously envisioned the issue itself because they addressed it in 210.52(C) and yet had a brain fart when they got to 210.52(D).

Maybe the words "shall be located above" were added into 210.52(C) at a later date and noone thought to take a comprehensive look at 210.52 at that time. As in, focusing on an individual tree rather than getting a view of the whole forest.

David
 
charlie b said:
I think you are in "Gray Haven" here. The code is not explicit in its language, but I think it is clear in its intent. The intent of that receptacle is to plug in an electric razor or a hair dryer or some such grooming tool. To require the user to bend down, in order to plug in a hair dryer, is unreasonable. Is it a code violation? Hard to say. I wish it were. You can infer from the exception that the code authors wanted the outlet to be close to the basin (i.e., not more than 12 inches below the basin, if installed on the side of a cabinet).

I don't think a standard hair dryer's power cord would reach from 8" AFF to a user's head. I know my razor's cord would not. I suggest talking the architect into changing the design. But I can't give you an NEC requirement to help with that discussion.
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Try a cordless razor, they work great.

Bob on the left coast.
 
dnem said:
This is a perfect example of the problem that arises when the code panel doesn't put down on the paper what they mean. The exception to 210.52(D) shows that it's undisputable that they don't intend the plug to be allowed to be lower than 12" below the countertop under any circumstance. Why they wouldn't make that clear in the main body of 210.52(D) is a puzzle.

It could be argued that anywhere below the sink top level is not allowed unless you are using the exception in 210.52(D)x.

If you look at 210.52(C)(5)x you see that the 12" below the countertop allowance is intended as an exception only allowed on the side of the kitchen cabinet. If you're not on the side of the cabinet, 210.52(C)(5) says that the plugs "shall be located above, but not more than 20 inches above, the countertop".

And yet the code panel didn't include the language "shall be located above" into 210.52(D). They obviously envisioned the issue itself because they addressed it in 210.52(C) and yet had a brain fart when they got to 210.52(D).

Maybe the words "shall be located above" were added into 210.52(C) at a later date and noone thought to take a comprehensive look at 210.52 at that time. As in, focusing on an individual tree rather than getting a view of the whole forest.

David
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210.52c is about kitchen countertops so means nothing in a bathroom.
210.52d applies to bathroom and from it i would say it passes at 8 inches.Dont like it but no violation if within 3 feet.Notice it did not say horizontal or verticle
 
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cowboyjwc said:
adjacent to each basin location means next to each basin.

To me next to would mean on the same plane.
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That was my thought as well but once I looked at a few definitions of adjacent I had to change my mind.

All the definitions I found basically said 'in the vicinity of'.
 
We can not add words to what it says.Form an opinion yes.Nec needs to start taking a good look at what they write.Hopefully some of them are seeing this forum not just on this issue but the many that keep coming up.In a court of law many get off cause a law is too vague on what it wants.No question in my mind that 8 inches is too low but just what is the number ? 10,16,24,30.
 
I had a meeting with 'em today, and said if I cant take a 36" piece of string to the outlet and reach the basin edge, it could be an expensive move after rock. I'm waiting for an SK to findout where it goes next.... But sure he'll move it up a bit.

So the 2005 says, 'not more than 12" below the countertop'?
 
cowboyjwc said:
adjacent to each basin location means next to each basin.

To me next to would mean on the same plane.
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iwire said:
That was my thought as well but once I looked at a few definitions of adjacent I had to change my mind.

All the definitions I found basically said 'in the vicinity of'.
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The requirement applies to the wall, not the receptacle. I would say the entire wall, floor to ceiling, would be adjacent.

"210.52(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one wall receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop."


John
 
JES2727 said:
The requirement applies to the wall, not the receptacle. I would say the entire wall, floor to ceiling, would be adjacent.

"210.52(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one wall receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop."


John
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It applies to the wall and the receptacle.

The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop
 
iwire said:
It applies to the wall and the receptacle.

The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop
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The way I read it, the wall is required to be adjacent. I understand that the receptacle is also adjacent if it is in this wall, and code compliant if it is within 3' of the basin. But "next to" or "in the same plane" is not part of the requirement for the receptacle.


John
 
I think we are stuck here.

You say the sky is blue and I am saying no, the grass is green. :)

In other words we have a 'failure to communicate'

Regardless of wall or receptacle 'adjacent' does not mean beside on the same plane.
 
I got one for y'all....
I'll know Monday or Tuesday when I get my final.
Situation is this...
Master bath, 2 basins, 10 inches between them & really 2 inches on the outside of them. (its a small area & design really should have had only one basin, but its a master bath)
In order to meet requirements of 210.52 I put one duplex GFCI centered between the two basins.
This was also for common sense, as if I were able to put two receptacles on the outside of the basins, there would literaly be no place to set any corded device on the counter.
Do you think I'll pass or fail?
 
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