Motor Dynamic Braking and VFD DC bus voltage.

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Boris G

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Location
Eastlake, OH, US
With 480VAC power DC Bus voltage is about 650V.
When motor is braking, it will charge DC bus capacitors and when this voltage exceeds 750V, braking resistor will be connected.

Question: what is the theory of getting higher than 650VDC voltage when continue to charge capacitors?
 

GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
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With 480VAC power DC Bus voltage is about 650V.
When motor is braking, it will charge DC bus capacitors and when this voltage exceeds 750V, braking resistor will be connected.

Question: what is the theory of getting higher than 650VDC voltage when continue to charge capacitors?

When the source of power to the capacitors via motor braking (regeneration) exceeds the peak line to line voltage on the input, the input rectifier will stop providing charging current to the capacitors.
But as long as the bus voltage does not exceed design limits (i.e. 750V in this case) there is no reason not to store that braking energy for possible future use when the motor re-accelerates.
There is no benefit to immediately switching in the braking resistor to waste power, and some potential advantages to delaying that action.

If no braking resistor were installed, the VFD would have to switch from active braking when the bus voltage reaches its limit and let the motor coast to a stop instead. That may cause operating or safely problems.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
With 480VAC power DC Bus voltage is about 650V.
When motor is braking, it will charge DC bus capacitors and when this voltage exceeds 750V, braking resistor will be connected.

Question: what is the theory of getting higher than 650VDC voltage when continue to charge capacitors?

The energy from the inertia has to go somewhere and adds to that stored in the capacitors. 0.5CV2 The C doesn't change so the V must.
 

Boris G

Member
Location
Eastlake, OH, US
I am agree with you, but my question about the theory of getting higher than 650VDC voltage when continue to charge capacitors.
During dynamic braking, the motor will function as generator. Question: What will define how high is the generated voltage?

Are there any potential problems using, for example, 360VAC permanent magnet AC motor with 480VAC power?
VFD output will be configured for 360VAC but what will happened during dynamic braking?
 

Boris G

Member
Location
Eastlake, OH, US
When the source of power to the capacitors via motor braking (regeneration) exceeds the peak line to line voltage on the input, the input rectifier will stop providing charging current to the capacitors.
But as long as the bus voltage does not exceed design limits (i.e. 750V in this case) there is no reason not to store that braking energy for possible future use when the motor re-accelerates.
There is no benefit to immediately switching in the braking resistor to waste power, and some potential advantages to delaying that action.

If no braking resistor were installed, the VFD would have to switch from active braking when the bus voltage reaches its limit and let the motor coast to a stop instead. That may cause operating or safely problems.

I am agree with you, but my question about the theory of getting higher than 650VDC voltage when continue to charge capacitors.
During dynamic braking, the motor will function as generator. Question: What will define how high is the generated voltage?

Are there any potential problems using, for example, 360VAC permanent magnet AC motor with 480VAC power?
VFD output will be configured for 360VAC but what will happened during dynamic braking?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I am agree with you, but my question about the theory of getting higher than 650VDC voltage when continue to charge capacitors.
During dynamic braking, the motor will function as generator. Question: What will define how high is the generated voltage?

Are there any potential problems using, for example, 360VAC permanent magnet AC motor with 480VAC power?
VFD output will be configured for 360VAC but what will happened during dynamic braking?

The limit to the generated voltage during deceleration will depend strongly on the load being seen by the "generator", but in the case of a VFD the fact that the VFD can generate pulse currents of any chosen magnitude and phase means that the normal running voltage of the motor does not put an upper limit on the generated voltage. That voltage will depend on how fast the motor is being decelerated.

I am not in a position to help you with the details of those calculations though. :(
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Adding a PMAC motor into the discussion is something you should have mentioned in the beginning, it's a different animal.

In practicality, the limit of the voltage coming back off of the motor is the limit of what the VFD will allow. Every VFD has a threshold of maximum DC bus voltage based upon the working tolerances of the components and circuit dielectrics. Once the DC bus voltage gets to that point, the VFD will shut itself off, disabling the transistors and stopping the flow of current back into the bus. On many of the 480V VFDs I'm familiar with that threshold is between 800V and 900VDC on the bus (varies by mfr.). The point at which the Dynamic Braking Resistor is triggered is of course much less than that.

Now, in the case of a PM AC motor, there is a potential issue. With a standard induction motor, if the VFD turns off it would cease to regenerate once the stator power is cut off, because it is the stator that excites the rotor to allow regeneration. With permanent magnets in the rotor, the motor can continue to regenerate voltage potential onto the lines between it and the VFD. Under normal machine conditions if you are driving a load and stopping it, the load speed will not have been higher than the motor was designed for, so would not present a problem. But in theory IF the motor can be driven OVER it's design speed by the load with the VFD off, even though there is no path for current flow, there may be issues with conductor insulation and termination flashover etc. The voltage profile is V/kRPM based on the design. So if you have a PMAC motor designed for 360VAC at 1800RPM, it is designed for 200V/RPM. That means if you over speed it to 5000RPM, the voltage will rise to 1000VAC. This is a known concern for using PMAC motors in overhauling load applications and they are NOT recommended for that purpose.

Now, where can that happen? A case in point is a long down hill conveyor where the motor was used in permanent regen mode to RETARD the belt speed. In that case if it were a basic induction motor and VFD, and the VFD trips off, the motor ceases to become a generator. But if you were to replace that induction motor with a PMAC motor, if the drive trips and the belt is allowed to run away, it may cause a fire in the conductors or controller because the regen voltage would run away as well, causing a flashover. So in either case you need a backup emergency mechanical brake, however if the brake fails the PMAC motor can cause a fire in addition to the other problems too, whereas the induction motor would not.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Oh, right, because 200V/kRPM is too hard to calculate... :slaphead:

Works for me.
I like to avoid decimal values with no integer component when possible. I can never decide whether or not to put a zero before the decimal point.
One reason, perhaps, that we used decibels instead of bels for sound?
Not possible with a lot of things though, like PF. :happyyes:
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
I am agree with you, but my question about the theory of getting higher than 650VDC voltage when continue to charge capacitors.
During dynamic braking, the motor will function as generator. Question: What will define how high is the generated voltage?

As has been stated, generally the VFD will shut off above a preset limit on voltage and regeneration will cease.
There are VFD's that can put energy back into the supply continuously but most have a plain rectifier on the front end (input side) so can't.

How can the voltage go? Other than being constrained by the VFD limit or component failure there is no theoretical upper limit.
Assuming the energy comes from rotational inertia:

E =0 .5 I ω2
ω is omega, rotational speed in radians per second.

This will add to the already 0.5CV2 energy stored in the bucket capacitors.

The units are consistent if you use SI.
 
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