mounting of breaker panel

[iwire]

You are mistaken my friend.....that is a "bat-wing"

:thumbsup:

 

[SceneryDriver]

It may not be in the code, but there are decades of experience in this part of the country that tend to indicate that panels and metallic conduits/boxes in contact with basement wall will corrode and fall apart. It's not the moisture per se, but galvanic corrosion as a result of the ground current in those metallic objects and the steel sacrificing itself to protect the galvanized coating. Depending on the moisture levels, it can take from just a few years to a few decades, but the stuff WILL fall off the wall at some point, especially in older homes in developments where water runoff wasn't planned and high moisture is an everyday thing.

Fair enough. A I said, I'm new to the East Coast. This does go to what I said earlier though; if there's an engineering reason to do something in a particular locale, that's fine. I've just run into inspectors that say "because I said so" too often, without anything to back up their position.

If the block is so corrosive (is cinder block significantly different on the East Coast?), what does that mean for fasteners, such as Tapcons that we use to mount the plywood? Should we be using stainless steel Tapcons?



SceneryDriver

 

[al hildenbrand]

Fair enough. A I said, I'm new to the East Coast.

If the block is so corrosive (is cinder block significantly different on the East Coast?) . . . ?

Your phrasing tends to focus on the microcosm of the masonry and its inside surface. . . as if they are all unaffected by the outside surface of the masonry, any treatment on the outside surface, and the nature of any other material (like earth) that is against the outside of the masonry.

In my opinion (IMO), to be a good maker/mechanic/electrician, one must put together a Code compliant assembly in relationship to the place of assembly, not just a microcosm of it.

My experience with existing and new residential basements across the Great Plains has shown the microcosm of the masonry and its inside surface to be, often times, heavily influenced by earth conditions and the nature of any water proofing treatment (if any). My residential installs will, reasonably, have many decades of life, and to survive relatively intact and safe, must take into account any deteriorating agents that my experience has shown are likely to be present. NEC 110.11.

NEC 110.11's "or other agents that have a deteriorating effect on conductors or equipment" is a very sweeping and inclusive statement that an AHJ can use with wide latitude.

Hand laid 18" thick limestone walls, to 8" thick three-core non-waterproofed concrete block, to fully waterproofed modern poured concrete or CMU walls all have different deteriorating effects.

And, in truth, the modern fully waterproofed concrete block wall isn't all it's cracked up to be. . . I've got a situation where that outside wall of a brand new building SHOULD be bone dry, but, when it rains a slow soaker of two or three days, it starts to weep. . .

 

[PetrosA]

Fair enough. A I said, I'm new to the East Coast. This does go to what I said earlier though; if there's an engineering reason to do something in a particular locale, that's fine. I've just run into inspectors that say "because I said so" too often, without anything to back up their position.

If the block is so corrosive (is cinder block significantly different on the East Coast?), what does that mean for fasteners, such as Tapcons that we use to mount the plywood? Should we be using stainless steel Tapcons?



SceneryDriver

I get what you're saying. I also think part of what makes it tough for the inspector to give an answer is that it's just taken for granted that installs will be done this way. It's kind of like driving on the right side of the road. Everybody knows it's how we drive in the US, but have you ever seen the driver's code section that dictates it? It's probably there somewhere, but who would ever feel the need to be able to point it out?

I don't know how Tapcons will hold up in all conditions over time. In newer basements with decently waterproofed walls they seem to be holding up well, but I don't know that I've seen many older than 10 years or so. Cut nails will rust away, but it takes decades. Nails shot in seem to hold up pretty well. Any anchored product (plastic or lead) seems to help prevent corrosion at the screw itself, but the strap, conduit or box that remains in contact with an exterior foundation wall of an older building will start to corrode at some point.

Aside from new construction, there's the question of older buildings. 18th and 19th century basements (and some early 20th century, too) will rarely have basement walls flat enough or large enough to mount a panel to and you have to frame out a section, mount plywood and use that to hang your gear. It's simply a limitation of the construction methods used at the time.

 

[kwired]

I get what you're saying. I also think part of what makes it tough for the inspector to give an answer is that it's just taken for granted that installs will be done this way. It's kind of like driving on the right side of the road. Everybody knows it's how we drive in the US, but have you ever seen the driver's code section that dictates it? It's probably there somewhere, but who would ever feel the need to be able to point it out?

I don't know how Tapcons will hold up in all conditions over time. In newer basements with decently waterproofed walls they seem to be holding up well, but I don't know that I've seen many older than 10 years or so. Cut nails will rust away, but it takes decades. Nails shot in seem to hold up pretty well. Any anchored product (plastic or lead) seems to help prevent corrosion at the screw itself, but the strap, conduit or box that remains in contact with an exterior foundation wall of an older building will start to corrode at some point.

Aside from new construction, there's the question of older buildings. 18th and 19th century basements (and some early 20th century, too) will rarely have basement walls flat enough or large enough to mount a panel to and you have to frame out a section, mount plywood and use that to hang your gear. It's simply a limitation of the construction methods used at the time.

one way roads do allow for driving on left, right or any other lanes in between