Mounting relays/contactor in panel okay?
- Thread starter ritelec
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
The thing to keep in mind is that as far as the NEC is concerned a panel-board is the bus bars and the overcurrent devices. (See article 408) They are designed to be mounted in cabinets covered by article 312.
That being the case why would we be prohibited from mounting electrical equipment in an electrical cabinet?
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
I was about to say the same thing but you said it better.
StarCat
Industrial Engineering Tech
- Location
- Moab, UT USA
- Occupation
- Imdustrial Engineering Technician - HVACR Electrical and Mechanical Systems
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Even if it is allowed
I personally don't like to see this or go behind it when troubleshooting is called on.
I have one in an old panel on property now that I need to get out of there. Its not practical or safe to troubleshoot this contactor with the panel live. Try to get a meter on the control coil. Ridiculous.
Its in very tight clearence and buried in adjacent load wires from the surrounding breakers.
I see it as a cut corner practice. Someone coming along later will have to guess where it is if they are looking for it.
Its should be in a box and labeled as to what it is.
Service
Even if it is allowed
I personally don't like to see this or go behind it when troubleshooting is called on.
I have one in an old panel on property now that I need to get out of there. Its not practical or safe to troubleshoot this contactor with the panel live. Try to get a meter on the control coil. Ridiculous.
Its in very tight clearence and buried in adjacent load wires from the surrounding breakers.
I see it as a cut corner practice. Someone coming along later will have to guess where it is if they are looking for it.
Its should be in a box and labeled as to what it is.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I think you can get factory mounted contactors in every brand panelboard.
It is pretty typical that at least a few of the panelboards we install in a new job will have contactors in them.
Does the enclosure have a UL label? What has UL included in that listing? Should you add devices in that enclosure do the conform with the UL listing, that is are they UL factory approved modification? Would the AHJ assume that the additional devices as added in the field were part of the original factory assembly and, as such, UL listed?.
If the AHJ recognizes the that the enclosure was field modified whould he/she approve it.
Or, is it just don't ask, don't tell with the hope nobody says anything as long as the modifications were made in a professional manor.
I would be concerned since the UL label is in fact affixed to the enclosure.
If the AHJ recognizes the that the enclosure was field modified whould he/she approve it.
Or, is it just don't ask, don't tell with the hope nobody says anything as long as the modifications were made in a professional manor.
I would be concerned since the UL label is in fact affixed to the enclosure.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
As soon as I put a hole in the panel or enlarge one of the pre-punched ko's I have technically violated the UL listing.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Do you mean something like this? We're installing these apartment panels with built in relays.
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That's not true where alteration is expected for common use.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Can you show us this exception?
I will as soon as you show me an in-use listed panelboard w/listed enclosure and cover that has no holes in the enclosure.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
AFAIK once you change it it's changed. AHJ can go ahead and accept it, but to be re-blessed by the UL, and pronounced listed again, it needs an on site UL inspection.
It depends on what and how you change it... and a little common sense really tells you whether the listing is voided. With electrical distribution equipment, it is expected to have conductors not part of the listing enter and leave, is it not? If the listing includes an enclosure (integral or as an accessory) with no KO's, there is no way to put the equipment to use without making at least one hole. To say making that hole voids the listing would be ludicrous.
Now if you field integrate a device within the listed equipment that is not a listed accessory or an expected customization, that would more than likely void the listing.
Am looking at a GE Powermark Gold load center. On the label it has a drawing showing the breaker locations. Directly below that are twp lines and a note between them "Wiring space. No additional entrance to the enclosure." If they note not putting holes there they must be expecting people to put holes in other places. Just not allowed where noted. It also has some notes on bottom entry feed. The biggest knockout on the bottom is 3/4". Clearly not big enough for a 125A load center so a bigger hole would have to be made which looks to be anticipated. This doesn't address the original question however....
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
UL standards such as 508A, for industrial control panels, have details for 'rerating' enclosures when holes have not been sealed by components or fittings that do not comply with the original rating.
Ul says that their label has to do with how the item was manufactured at the factory, as soon as it is installed UL says it can no longer pass judgement on it based solely on its labeling.
When I said making that hole voiding the listing would be ludicrous, I did not mean the hole wouldn't be used for the proper termination of a raceway or cable.
Does your first statement apply to an installed product?
Of course UL is going to make the second statement. It's a CTA disclaimer because they cannot anticipate any and every possible alteration someone may make in the field. If your first statement applies to an installed product, then your second statement is not absolutely true. Nevertheless, all they are saying is, we'd have to evaluate the product as installed (definitely not free of charge) before we can assess whether all the listing requirements have been met. Regardless, this gets into legal matters for which retaining attorneys and using the legal system as a fulcrum is the only avenue for resolving differences of opinion, but not necessarily in one's favor, especially the "small guy".
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Say there is a UL listed Type 3R/12 enclosure.
The installer used a reciprocating saw to field cut an opening.
A 2" NEMA 4X "Meyers Hub", found on the installer's shop, is installed into the field cut opening.
Rigid aluminum conduit is installed into the Hub.
What is the UL Type rating of this installation? Would it be acceptable to you as an inspector? What tools or guidelines would you use in your evaluation?
StarCat
Industrial Engineering Tech
- Location
- Moab, UT USA
- Occupation
- Imdustrial Engineering Technician - HVACR Electrical and Mechanical Systems
I may take a photograph
I may take a photograph
The photo below is clean work.
What I am describing is not.
Maybe I can get a photo next time I open up that mess.
I may take a photograph
The photo below is clean work.
What I am describing is not.
Maybe I can get a photo next time I open up that mess.
- Status