moving gfic outlet

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Jim W in Tampa said:
Can we assume you did not do track homes ? That extra circuit could easily make you high bidder. I would not want what was legal 25 years ago but thats what contractors wanted was cheap,cheap,cheap. They were not low end homes either. Customers do not see wires they see fixtures.
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You may assume and you would be correct. I have done custom homes almost exclusively. I have done some spec homes but they were high end and I rarely ever bid against anyone.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
You may assume and you would be correct. I have done custom homes almost exclusively. I have done some spec homes but they were high end and I rarely ever bid against anyone.
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And i would have wired above code as well. Happy customer is important. When doing custom homes i would wire as if its mine as long as they are paying. You been lucky or smart to stay away from track homes.
 
iaov said:
My wife plugs in 2 curling irons and a hair dryer every morning. I was at a big power plant this winter and the ops there told me that the grid takes a heck of a hit every morning when the ladies turn the hair dyers on!:D
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Let's not forget coffee makers and toaster-ovens.
 
Jim
If one were to move a receptacle and box a couple of inches, I do not know many people who would see the device as being moved. Not many installers leave too much cable in the wall. Once the box and cable have been changed, it is new work.

The NEC and other codes cover new work.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Jim
If one were to move a receptacle and box a couple of inches, I do not know many people who would see the device as being moved. Not many installers leave too much cable in the wall. Once the box and cable have been changed, it is new work.

The NEC and other codes cover new work.
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And just where in nec does it cover how far we can move it ? What if we left the receptacle where it was but rerouted the wire because it was in the way of ______________.
Just where do we draw that fine line ? If wires were from top can we shorten them a few inches, perhaps just loop them. NEC does not cover this gray area. Move it 2 inches ok move it 9 ? Bottom line is that NEC does not say what stays as old (grandfathered) and when new begins. Pretty much left up to the ahj but not backed by nec either way.
 
Jim let me recap and see if I have your position straight. :D

1) You feel it is important that people get permits and inspections

2) You don't want the inspector to actually enforce the code.
 
iwire said:
Jim let me recap and see if I have your position straight. :D

1) You feel it is important that people get permits and inspections

2) You don't want the inspector to actually enforce the code.
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One thing about Jim - he is consistently inconsistent. ;)
 
iwire said:
Jim let me recap and see if I have your position straight. :D

1) You feel it is important that people get permits and inspections

2) You don't want the inspector to actually enforce the code.
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NO Bob thats not what i am saying. Permits and inspections are not even part of NEC, good idea to keep things inspected so that they comply to nec but not required by nec.

I dont want the inspector making up codes to fit what he don't like. The OP on this ran nothing new so now what ?
 
moving gfci outlet

moving gfci outlet

Actually he said an old wall was removed and a new one installed.
The new one was 3 feet away .
Being the intelligent and experienced electricians that we must all be [since we found our way to the forum in the first place]we can ,using the information available,determine that this a bathroom renovation.
Relocating an existing recpt. 9 in" so that a h/owner can hang a picture of Uncle Harry and have it fit on that wall oppsite the BOWL is not a renovation.It probably wouldn't require a permit because no structural work is being done -likely nothing but moving that recpt and new paint and Good old Uncle Harry staring down at you when all is said and done.You wouldn't file for that..,hopefully even if the codes in place when the bathroom was built didn't require it ,you would still change the old standard brown recpt to a gfi .However in that case I don't think you'd have an inspector require a new circuit.As I said ,I don't think an inspector would even enter the picture in that situation.
That said,When you build new walls,remove old walls ,--well we all know that you are making structural changes here,I bet we have plumbing changes here so we have a plumbing inspector here..I bet we told the h/owner in so many words enough so that she believes she is getting an "Updated bathroom" and that doesn't mean just fixtures and cabinets--I'd have to say that the job speaks for itself-new work.
One can try to turn the words around as much as they want,however it will be the building dept who ultimately says how the job should be looked at[new work,limited reno,etc..,]-then everyone else does their job accordingly.
When you come right down to it you should not want to be deciding whats right or wrong or required or not--because if you take that responsibility on yourself you can be sure that if something goes wrong...,anything...,you're going to be responsible for that decision.
 
mthead said:
Actually he said an old wall was removed and a new one installed.
The new one was 3 feet away .
Being the intelligent and experienced electricians that we must all be [since we found our way to the forum in the first place]we can ,using the information available,determine that this a bathroom renovation.
Relocating an existing recpt. 9 in" so that a h/owner can hang a picture of Uncle Harry and have it fit on that wall oppsite the BOWL is not a renovation.It probably wouldn't require a permit because no structural work is being done -likely nothing but moving that recpt and new paint and Good old Uncle Harry staring down at you when all is said and done.You wouldn't file for that..,hopefully even if the codes in place when the bathroom was built didn't require it ,you would still change the old standard brown recpt to a gfi .However in that case I don't think you'd have an inspector require a new circuit.As I said ,I don't think an inspector would even enter the picture in that situation.
That said,When you build new walls,remove old walls ,--well we all know that you are making structural changes here,I bet we have plumbing changes here so we have a plumbing inspector here..I bet we told the h/owner in so many words enough so that she believes she is getting an "Updated bathroom" and that doesn't mean just fixtures and cabinets--I'd have to say that the job speaks for itself-new work.
One can try to turn the words around as much as they want,however it will be the building dept who ultimately says how the job should be looked at[new work,limited reno,etc..,]-then everyone else does their job accordingly.
When you come right down to it you should not want to be deciding whats right or wrong or required or not--because if you take that responsibility on yourself you can be sure that if something goes wrong...,anything...,you're going to be responsible for that decision.
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A new wall does not equal a new outlet. What i see here is an EC making a bid to simply move the wires, box,receptacle,plate cover to a NEW location. Only thing new is the wall itself. Now if he was changing the wire then no argument it would be new. But he did not change the CIRCUIT. Now he is back and likely doing a half day job for free ,buying wire,adding breaker. What are chances that a panel even still had a spare slot. This 1 hour job has got costly. Any other bathrooms will remain as they were and work fine but now over something as silly as moving it to another spot we are bringing it new code. This is a disservice. that only runs the bill up.
 
LarryFine said:
I don't believe he should have to add a new circuit, but I definitely don't believe he should have to do it free.
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If the installation is on the fence, such as this one, then if he's got to run a new circuit it's his fault for not getting clarification from the AHJ first.

This is just like the "Do I need to install AFCIs for a panel swap?" question. Some places say yes, others don't require it. If you swap out the panel and fill it with standard breakers, and the inspector comes in and red tags you, you're left holding the bag. When in doubt, make a phone call before you give a price.
 
I guess now is as good as time as ever.
Please reread the NEC.
It says there must be a 20 outlet in the bath. It does not say , all outlets must be 20 amps. It also says there must be a outlet by the sink. But agian it does not say that the outlets must be from the 20 circuit. Please note that when the code talks about the kitchen , It says "using the 20 circuit outlets are to be installed. Not the bath.
I always put a 20 amp next to the sink, and I think it is a good idea.
 
cmesaw said:
....It does not say , all outlets must be 20 amps. ........... But agian it does not say that the outlets must be from the 20 circuit......
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Yes it does. 210.11(C)(3) reads in part....

.....at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s)
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It does not say "at least one receptacle in the bathroom" or "some of the bathroom receptacles".
 
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