Moving UP

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joeyww12000

Senior Member
Location
Chatsworth GA
I have been doing electrical work now for 6 yrs. I do not know everything there is to know about the electrical field nor claim to, but I work hard and feel confident I could run a job now. I have worked on 3 jobs for the company I work for now and 2 out of 3 of these I know I couldnt do any worse of a job if I were in charge as the men who were in charge did. I know I havent had to go to the weekly contractors meetings or dealt one on one with the company owner but you have to start somewhere....right? I know how to do the work...and that...that I dont know how, I know how to find out how to. I understand there is alot that I would come across that I didnt even know was part of running a job, but like I said you have to start somewhere. The company I work for doesnt pay that well, but if you want to be able to ever get a raise or go anywhere with them the only way is to run a job. If you are a laborer or journeyman then you get their going rate and thats it. Laborers start at 8.00hr and journeyman between 14.00 and 16.00. Running a job you get between 16.00 and 20.00, but thats better than my 14.50 now. Like I said, if you could work under the men that my company has running jobs youd be like,"What the ????". Noone is professional.....if I were to use terms such as EGC, GEC, grounded conductor this bunch would not know what I was talking about....I can understand if a helper doesnt know but a journeyman or a boss should use proper electrical lingo and know the definitions of what he is referring to. I just want my chance to prove to myself I can do it and get on with my career. Im at a crossroads. I dont want to ask to run the next available job, blow it and have it ruin me down the road. Anyone have any opinions? How did you start out running jobs or when did you know you were ready?
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
I have been doing electrical work now for 6 yrs. I do not know everything there is to know about the electrical field nor claim to,

I have been doing electrical work now for 38 yrs. I do not know everything there is to know about the electrical field nor claim to.

The biggest thing IMO when moving up is not just being able to deal with the electric work, it is customer relations, manpower management, material specialists (know what to get, why to get it and is it budgeted for). PAPER WORK, PAPER WORK, PAPER WORK........
 

joeyww12000

Senior Member
Location
Chatsworth GA
I work for a commercial electrical company. The only paperwork I ever see any boss doing is signing reciepts from material coming in and filing it away, if they even do that. The most they have to do is lay out the men in the morning and go to meetings about the job once a week. Theres not much to being a boss here at this company. The owner is very involved with the numbers and he is the one who keeps up with the paperwork. Boss's just manage the job by like I said laying out the men on their daily work and get a material list at the end of each day....if a problem arises then they are required to figure out a solution and that about sums up there responsibilities.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
How does someone really know they are ready to lead?
They might think they are...but are they really?

"Baptism by fire" is the norm around here [and many other places, including the White House].

You can have all the book smarts in the world, but how you perform under real conditions is your defining moment.
 
I don't know what size company or projects you are dealing with but I'm willing to bet that the super's on the job do more than point fingers once a day and attend a meeting once a week. Unless you are watching his moves all day it is hard to say what he is doing with his time. The phenomena of thinking that your boss is getting a bigger paycheck than you for sitting back and doing nothing is widespread and often wrong. There are many things that go on that you don't even get exposed to until you are in that position.

That being said with 6 years in I would think that taking over some responsibility for running things would be about the right timing. Again it really depends on the size of jobs you are working on. If you are talking about 50 guys on a job maybe step up and offer to lead a crew, ask the super for a chunk of the job and a few guys to get it done and see what happens. If you are talking about smaller jobs w/ crews of just a few people it will be harder to put your foot in that door. You would need to just ask the boss for a chance.

The major differences are paperwork and people management. I know you wrote that you don't feel that there is a lot of paperwork but again I suspect that you are not seeing the whole picture. Safety meeting logs, daily progress reports, RFI, AWA, payroll etc etc.

Managing people is more magic than science. If you put those two together on the same thing they will talk too much, but I can't put those two together because they almost got into a fight the last time they worked together, his conduit work looks awesome but he takes for ever to do it so I need to get the other guy to get the above ceiling stuff but he will need to do the electrical closets, and on and on.

The only way to know for sure is to jump in w/ both feet.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I have been doing electrical work now for 6 yrs. I do not know everything there is to know about the electrical field nor claim to, but I work hard and feel confident I could run a job now. I have worked on 3 jobs for the company I work for now and 2 out of 3 of these I know I couldnt do any worse of a job if I were in charge as the men who were in charge did.

Ok you have done three jobs but just how long is this. Many companies don't just look for the best electrician to run a job they also look for a track record and stability because they don't want to change foremen in the middle of a job. The guy running the job may not be all that smart but he's been with the company for a long time and they know he's not going anywhere and he does have a good track record for showing up and getting the job done.

The best way to get responsibility is to take responsibility, do the best job you can with little or no supervision. Show up on time and don't leave early. I know some good electricians that can't run a job because they are not dependable. If the company sees that you are a steady hand then they will probably make you a lead man or even a foreman of a smaller job just to check you out. Companies are always looking for people that can run jobs.

There are lots of good journeymen out there that are not running jobs and it's not because they can't it's because they just want to do their work and go home without the added stress and responsibility.

If you really think you are ready just go in an tell those in charge that you would like the chance the next time it comes available to run a job and prove yourself. In a good ecomony it's easy to get a job to run, if a foreman quits or gets sick it's normally the guy that knows the most about what's going on that gets to take over, like it or not.
 

Rewire

Senior Member
Everything looks easy when someone else is doing it.How prepared are you for the other aspects of running a job .What steps have you taken to gain the knowledge you will need.Thinking you can do it and getting yourself prepared to do it are two different things.
 
There are lots of good journeymen out there that are not running jobs and it's not because they can't it's because they just want to do their work and go home without the added stress and responsibility.

If you really think you are ready just go in an tell those in charge that you would like the chance the next time it comes available to run a job and prove yourself. In a good economy it's easy to get a job to run, if a foreman quits or gets sick it's normally the guy that knows the most about what's going on that gets to take over, like it or not.

What I'm reading from the OP is not that he so much wants to be the Foreman or PM but sees that job as the only available means to his end. His gripe (again, as I'm reading it) is that he wants to earn more than the $14.50 he is presently getting from that small town Georgia EC.

Solving that problem will be tough for a while.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
What I'm reading from the OP is not that he so much wants to be the Foreman or PM but sees that job as the only available means to his end. His gripe (again, as I'm reading it) is that he wants to earn more than the $14.50 he is presently getting from that small town Georgia EC.

Solving that problem will be tough for a while.

I agree, raises are probably on hold for awhile. Even if you could get one is not a good idea as some of these companies will try to get rid of their highest paid employees. It happened to me once, I had just ask for and gotten a raise and that raise put me in the class of those to get the chop.

If you can show that you can run a small job and be productive it may be a help in keeping your job.
 

wawireguy

Senior Member
If they'll let you run a job go for it! You seem to think you're ready and with 6 years in the trade you're probably capable of running something in your comfort zone. From your other posts I had assumed you were a apprentice but apparently not. Any responsibility you can get I'd grab onto it myself.
 

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
I work for a commercial electrical company. The only paperwork I ever see any boss doing is signing reciepts from material coming in and filing it away, if they even do that. The most they have to do is lay out the men in the morning and go to meetings about the job once a week. Theres not much to being a boss here at this company. The owner is very involved with the numbers and he is the one who keeps up with the paperwork. Boss's just manage the job by like I said laying out the men on their daily work and get a material list at the end of each day....if a problem arises then they are required to figure out a solution and that about sums up there responsibilities.
From reading this. I assume you believe the boss's do little, and you want a job that doesn't require a lot of work, and pays just as much! [Re-think this]
I notice your claim that if I were to use terms such as EGC, GEC, grounded conductor this bunch would not know what I was talking about....I can understand if a helper doesnt know but a journeyman or a boss should use proper electrical lingo and know the definitions of what he is referring to.
I agree! I say, if the owner is not involved in the every day work task, then you are under the mercy of the boss's you claim don't know anything--unless the owner has an open door policy.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Im at a crossroads. I dont want to ask to run the next available job, blow it and have it ruin me down the road. Anyone have any opinions? How did you start out running jobs or when did you know you were ready?

i never asked, i was asked if i wanted to do it. not everyone does, and not
everyone can push work. it's sort of like herding 10 cats into the same
corner of the room, by yourself, but not as much fun.

by reading your post, your perception of what the foreman does seems to
match what you might observe watching him do the dance.
unless the work is simplistic to the point a turnip could schedule it, there is
a bunch of stuff he deals with that you don't see.

you're running a 5 man crew, doing underground on a commercial occupancy,
say, a bank of america. you are putting in stuff, and after the pour, you
discover that there is architectural glass that was not immediately apparent
in the plans, that cuts the building in two in the ceiling area, meaning that
if you didn't put it in the slab, there is no way to get there from here. you
have 2 3/4" conduits, and a 1" conduit going to that portion of the bank.
you need 5 times that amount.
now, what do you do?

you are at a major theme park, on emergency overtime, and it's the "A" team
from your employer, all the foremen, and general foremen from other jobs,
there to work 12 hours double time, to try and win a contract for a 15+M
job that has gone south. 12 guys working for you, and they are all alpha
males with suitable egos, who are not accustomed to being told how to do
ANYTHING........ and you are pushing this, for three nights.
now, what do you do?

400 2x4 fixtures show up on the job, to be placed in a t bar ceiling. the job's
slow, so you dump 5 guys putting them up, to discover that the wholesale
house sent the wrong fixtures, after 50 of them are installed. you were in
your monthly job meeting, and nobody bothered to check before putting them
in. you now have five guys standing there, watching you, with nothing to do.
now, what do you do?

26' to the ceiliing, and you have just had a JW put 3,000' of steel tube in
for lighting and power, and shoot the 275 4sd boxes to the steel with
a hilti gun. caddy clips on the pipe. the wire is pulled, and drops are in
down to the 16' ceiling level, which is going in. monocote has been sprayed
on all the overhead steel, covering the pipe, and the sides of the j boxes.
the structural inspector comes out, and says the boxes violate the fireproofing
requirements, and the general agrees.
now, what do you do?

you find out your best journeyman is snorting crank on his lunch break.
now, you know this, and other people know you know this.... but the guy
has the whole job in his head, and has been making you look good for three
months.
now, what do you do?

you find out the plans you scaled to do the underground were plotted
incorrectly, in autocad, and were not to scale. everything is 18% off.
the slab is poured. walls are going up, which is how this little fact was
discovered.
now, what do you do?

the plans don't specify a housekeeping pad under a 2000 amp 480 volt
switchgear, and the inspector refuses to sign off on it, until you pour
one. a note in the specifications requires you to comply with the AHJ
as part of your contract documents, regardless of errors and omissions.
if you take on the inspector on this, he will pick your job to pieces on
everything else, insuring a loss for your shop. the switchgear has been
set, but no pipe and wire yet.
now, what do you do?

your two best journeymen on a crew of 8 have a disagreement, one of them
assaults the other, putting him in the hospital. you have two significant
portions of your job that each one is doing, and they have the whole thing
in their heads.
now, what do you do?

these are things i have observed on jobs firsthand in over 30 years of playing
with this stuff. you can't know what you don't know, until you know that you
don't know it, and then that knowledge isn't helpful.

in addition to actually laying out the job, and ordering material, and keeping
track of the payroll, and scheduling labor, and handling employee disputes,
and documenting extras, and getting change orders and extras signed, and
doing asbuilts, and pricing extras, and getting clarification on job questions,
and dealing with the inspector, you also have to attend meetings, so things
can go sideways in your absence, and keep the chair in the trailer warm.

good luck. it's not what it appears to be........ :D


randy
 

Mr. Wizard

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Fulthrotl may have hit the nail on the head. There is a LOT more to running a job than what you see from 7 to 3:30. Scheduling, disputes, change orders, RFI's, mountains of paperwork, headaches, whiner's, drug addicts, supply house problems, thieves, accidents, constantly being in the crossfire, owners, customers, inspectors, other trades, meetings, the list is endless. My best advice, and this may keep you from getting thrown under the bus, would be to ask if you can be an "assistant" foreman, or something like that. That way you get your feet wet without experiencing the whole nightmare. Biggest job I ever ran was worth $72 million. We were adding a new warehouse, lines, and various other stuff for a semiconductor manufacturer. I had 40 guys under me at one point, and I can tell you, all that glitters is not gold. Sometimes I wish I could just put my tools back on and be another face in the crowd :roll: Just be careful what you wish for :D
 

Mr. Wizard

Senior Member
Location
Texas
Oh, one more thing. You don't have to be the greatest or smartest electrician to run jobs. It helps, but it's not the most important thing. That important thing would be knowing how to motivate your men (and women), come up with efficient methods that are safe and code compliant, and praise your workers when they are doing well, don't bust chops or break balls in front of everyone unless you have to, and believe it or not, the greenest of apprentices can sometimes come up with good ideas - listen to them. The whole "alpha male" mentality sucks, IMO. I let my guys give me opinions, advice, whatever. But at the end of it all, when I have made my decision, that's the one we're going with. If they deviate from that, they will find themselves down the road real quick.
 

ohm

Senior Member
Location
Birmingham, AL
Oh, one more thing. You don't have to be the greatest or smartest electrician to run jobs. It helps, but it's not the most important thing. That important thing would be knowing how to motivate your men (and women), come up with efficient methods that are safe and code compliant, and praise your workers when they are doing well, don't bust chops or break balls in front of everyone unless you have to, and believe it or not, the greenest of apprentices can sometimes come up with good ideas - listen to them. The whole "alpha male" mentality sucks, IMO. I let my guys give me opinions, advice, whatever. But at the end of it all, when I have made my decision, that's the one we're going with. If they deviate from that, they will find themselves down the road real quick.

All posts had great advice but Mr. Wizard and Fulthrotl brought up a very good points...the boss needs to be able to manage people as well a be technically competent. Former military and age have a big advantage. Also, no one I've ever met has been promoted until the've performed the job description, over a period of time. And remember, don't try to remake the world on the first day in the drivers seat...you'll become a casualty.
 

greg y

Member
There has been a lot of good advice here already, the scariest thing in the world is when you are handed the drawings and told to go do it. Time is the best teacher on this subject after 19 yrs. of doing electrical and running a lot of jobs i still learn something new everyday and tell our apprentices that everyday.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
I have been doing electrical work now for 6 yrs. I do not know everything there is to know about the electrical field nor claim to, but I work hard and feel confident I could run a job now. I have worked on 3 jobs for the company I work for now and 2 out of 3 of these I know I couldnt do any worse of a job if I were in charge as the men who were in charge did.
The hardest thing about running a project is managing people.
Hardware is inanimate. It is right or it isn't.
 

nunu161

Senior Member
Location
NEPA
16-20 dollars is no where near enough to run work on a commercial or industrial project, your employer is probably bidding you for at least 35 dolllars an hour on these projects, i dont think its worth the aggravation but then again i dont know your situation
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Oh yeah alot of information has been presented!

I don't know if it's all correct for the OP's situation!

Frankly I beleive its more of a thought from yourself as to ask yourself, "What do I want to do, now?" I can remember exactly my own thoughts and process in respects to your OP!

I could at only 6 years keep my nose to the work. Effient and productive.

You've sighted job's and compared yourself to this job's over-all compliciation, and you didn't suggest how to do better ?
You didn't state or suggest something different, the better mouse trap?

Are you even a person to "speak up" to suggest that better idea, and then
work as to show your worth or show a promise of moving up?

Welp, do they take your helper away from you cause their so good they can go now do your job? By the way how do you work with your helper?

I've told many a helper: "I want you to know what I know so I don't have to work so hard, It's work, we're going to be working hard, and ask any questions and get me if there is a problem, with anything!
I work to the NEC Code, I don't like to cover the same territory twice!"

Some people think I bumb the keyboard here, you should hear me on the job, This is why were doing this, here's why your doing that. This is what I want you to do and here's why.
Is that you, can you do that,(of course this is my rationalization as earlier stated)?
Do you know any of that? Better yet is that even you?

My call is that you as yourself have to ask yourself, what is it?

Age is not a qualifier for responsibility, maturity is...
 
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