Multi dwelling building corrections after inspection and your option

A

Alexis

Member
Location
Los Angeles
Hello,

We just had an inspection in one of the cities around Los Angeles. They have all their own local codes and rules. Some of them could be reasonable and some are just funny. I'd apreciate any feedback!

The property is a 10 unit plus HSE (11 meters total). We upgraded the main panel to 400A (with main disconnect) the sub panel breakers are all 30A with 10awg feeders to each unit. Inspector demanded to have minimum 6awg and 60A per unit.
What is your opinion? If I'm reading the 230.79 and 230.80 right the 400A main disconnect is falling under this requirement and gives us permission to keep 30A down the stream for each unit. That's how at least we've been doing this for many other inspections.

The other correction was that if we are replacing the panels we have to replace the feeder to each unit and we can't keep using existing flex as a ground, like it was done in each sub panel before.

He told us also to remove gas pipe bonding that we installed between each gas meter..

Some ridiculous corrections that he added for local utility rules:
1. No main ground wire allowed in the main service disconnect to bond to the neutral. Has to be installed in one of the meter stacks.
2. No parallel service feeders (we have two sets of 3/0)
3. No LB on the service mast (we have added rings for utility to seal). When I asked how do you even do that 90 on the wall without a LB, he said "be creative".

I'd apreciate any feedback from you guys! Thanks!!
 

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Oh, and one more, he mentioned that for 6 or more breakers in any sub panel we now have to have a main breaker.. I was confident that 6 handle rule is not about sub panels, or am I wrong?
 
What was the article 220 load calculations? Most old installations were far undersized for modern living. Without a calculation how did you come up with a 400a

Even if allowing for 230.79, 230.79(B) would be in violation based on picture with 7 circuits. But, service ends at the service disconnect so 230 would not be in play, now pushing you back to 215, which also has requirement that it be sized to the loads. Load calculation based on 220. Service Upgrades generally would require a recalculation of loads to new codes in determining the service size.

Most jurisdictions do require minimum of 60A provided for each dwelling unit, and that would likely be found in the building code for your state or municipality. Allowances for diversity on a multifamily dwelling service would allow for a smaller Service than the total amperage calculation of each unit combined by applying a demand factor found in 220.84(A) as long as all conditions mentioned apply, but each unit feeder is dictated by that article 220 calculations.
Alexis said:
Oh, and one more, he mentioned that for 6 or more breakers in any sub panel we now have to have a main breaker.. I was confident that 6 handle rule is not about sub panels, or am I wrong?
Click to expand...
Don't think he is referring to the six handle rule, but that a subpanel not within sight of the disconnect have its own disconnect within sight either adjacent to or within the panel.
 
Hello everyone,

I finally got ahold of the inspector and he provided official correction for sub panel feeders. Just as a reminder we replaced 11 meter multiunit panel and sub panels and inspector is requiring us to replace feeders which would make us open drywall though 10 units..

"Minimum feeder to the subs shall not be less than 60 amps and #6 copper conductor (Article 225.39(D) and Article 230.79(D).".

Would my main 400A Service disconnect qualify for master disconnect over 60A?
Any help how to fight this would be greatly appreciated!
 
Fred B said:
What was the article 220 load calculations? Most old installations were far undersized for modern living. Without a calculation how did you come up with a 400a
Click to expand...
Very informative information from Fred.

When caught without load calculations required for approved plans, permits are known as retroactive.

If owner wont abate construction defect, and pay for retroactive corrections, or contractor can’t cover it, business tend to sue each other, fold, or file BK.

In that case owner must either request bids, or live with open permits, subject to complete loss from cancellation and non-renewal of any insurance claims.
 
Seems to me he's grasping at straws. Art 230 is for services and Art 225 is for OUTSIDE feeders so not applicable yo your individual units.
I would think a request for Art 220 load calculations would be a reasonable and the "flex for grounding" appears to be a legitimate violation based on 250.118
 
Joe.B said:
Is this the entire scope of work, or is there a major remodel going on and this is just your part? When was the building originally constructed?
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Just the panel, no remodeling. We of course would've replaced the feeders if that was the case..
TwistLock said:
I'd be curious to know how your contract was worded. 'Upgrade' or 'Replace'.
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"Upgrade", but that was for the service panel. Sub panel "replacements".
 
Load calculations were done. There were not many changes from the original building, so load calcs are within the amp of original feeder size per unit..
 
Update:
The inspector is enforcing us to replace the feeders to each unit to 60A, regardless of the code sections that I showed them. Unit calculations are withing the 30A breakers that are installed.

Their lead inspector basically said "F off", since he had this conversation "too many times and you always loose".

This is what I sent him after that phone conversation:

"
Hey ****,

Following our conversation a few minutes ago.

The correction that was provided to us stated:
"Minimum feeder to the subs shall not be less than 60 amps and #6 copper conductor (Article 225.39(D) and Article 230.79(D).".

Article 230 is for services and Article 225 is for OUTSIDE feeders so not applicable to individual units. 230 would apply to a panel without a main disconnect (with less than 6 meters) like WEPK Siemens that would call for minimum of 60A.

A feeder to a dwelling in a multifamily is not a service equipment and article 230 does not apply to it. Such feeder can be less than 60 amps if the calculated load of the unit is less than 60. It would fall under article 220 load calculations.

Please provide valid code section that is being enforced.

I appreciate your time and consideration."

How do you even fight AHJ further if they do not reasonably cooperate?
 
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