Multiple Neutrals in same box

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stickboy1375 said:
House wiring is the least of my EMF worries....


Computers
Electric Clocks
Fluorescent Lights
Microwave Ovens and Radar
Telephones and Answering Machines
Electric Razors and Hair Dryers

If you really want to scare yourself, go out and buy a gauss meter and try getting away from high levels of EMF's... ;)

I won't bother telling you resi smoke detectors have radioactive material in them then....

iwire said:
Life is dangerous, live healthy, die anyway. :wink:

Yul Brynner died eating twigs and leaves.....
 
stickboy1375 said:
If you really want to scare yourself, go out and buy a gauss meter and try getting away from high levels of EMF's... ;)

I have one and I do not worry about emf's that are a safe distance from me. I have been in a house with EMF's of 14 mg anywhere within the baby's room. Why? Because of 2 3way switches that had the neutrals from 2 circuits tied together. I split them and the mg disappeared.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I have one and I do not worry about emf's that are a safe distance from me. I have been in a house with EMF's of 14 mg anywhere within the baby's room. Why? Because of 2 3way switches that had the neutrals from 2 circuits tied together. I split them and the mg disappeared.



Where did you get the gauss meter, I think it would be a great tool for easy upsells while on job sites.
 
stickboy1375 said:
Where did you get the gauss meter, I think it would be a great tool for easy upsells while on job sites.
They are pretty cheap. My was given to me by a friend but I know you can get them online and perhaps at radio shack. Karl Riley is the emf's expert and has written books on it. He may chime in but I believe he like the Bell model gauss meter. The exact model he had recommended is no longer made.

Edit; I believe the old model was a bell 4080 which has been replaced by a 4180
 
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iwire said:
In my opinion no, that would be a violation of 310.4

I know that this is the accepted meaning of 310.4, and I am not about to argue that the _concept_ of 310.4 as understood is wrong...but I have a question about the actual wording.

What in 310.4 _says_ that conductors smaller than 1/0 _cannot_ be paralleled? 310.4 _permits_ 1/0 and larger conductors to be connected in parallel, but does not explicitly prohibit paralleling smaller conductors.

Since the NEC is supposed to be a permissive code, doesn't this mean that parallel #10 conductors are compliant?

-Jon
 
winnie said:
What in 310.4 _says_ that conductors smaller than 1/0 _cannot_ be paralleled? 310.4 _permits_ 1/0 and larger conductors to be connected in parallel, but does not explicitly prohibit paralleling smaller conductors.

Since the NEC is supposed to be a permissive code, doesn't this mean that parallel #10 conductors are compliant?

-Jon

I agree entirely with your point, it is one of those oddities of the NEC. :roll:

I believe panel statements have basically said that 310.4 prohibits paralleling conductors smaller then 1/0 even though it really does not say that.
 
Jon,
I fully agree, but the CMP 6 does not. I submitted a proposal for the 2008 code to change this, but the CMP insists that the words "shall be permitted" actually prohibit any other installation...I wonder where they studied the English language?
6-8 Log #2235 NEC-P06 Final Action: Reject
(310.4)
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Donald A. Ganiere, Ottawa, IL
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
310.4 Conductors in Parallel. Aluminum, coper-clad aluminum, or copper
conductors of size 1/0 AWG and larger size #1 AWG and smaller , comprising
each phase, polarity, neutral, or grounded circuit conductor, shall be permitted
to not be connected in parallel (electrically joined at both ends).
Substantiation: There is no code rule that prevents the installation of
conductors smaller than 1/0 AWG in parallel in the current code. The existing
rule just specifically permits the use of conductors 1/0 and larger in parallel,
but does not prohibit smaller conductors from being paralleled.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The present language meets the requirements of Section
3.1.3 of the NEC Style Manual. Article 310.4 permits conductors 1/0 or larger
to be installed in parallel. The general rule is that conductors sized smaller than
1/0 are not permitted to be run in parallel.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11
6-5 Log #2258 NEC-P06 Final Action: Reject
(310.4)
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Donald A. Ganiere, Ottawa, IL
Comment on Proposal No: 6-8
Recommendation: This proposal should be accepted.
Substantiation: The panel rejected this proposal with the comment that the
current wording complies with section 3.1.3 of the NEC Style Manual. Based
on the online version of this document, I think the panel meant to say section
3.1.2. This section says that the use of the words ?shall be permitted? are to be
used to ?indicate allowed optional or alternate methods.?
That would indicate that there must be some rule that says that conductors
cannot be installed in parallel. I am not aware of any such rule. Using the
current wording of ?shall be permitted? in no way limits the use of smaller
conductors installed in parallel. The rule should be changed to the wording in
the proposal to provide a valid restriction on the use of conductors smaller than
1/0 in parallel.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The submitter is correct that the NEC Style Manual
reference in the panel statement on Proposal 6-8 should have been 3.1.2,
Permissive Rules. The parenthetical sentence immediately following the
referenced text states, ?(Note that these are still mandatory language and
constitute rules.)? Also, Item 4 under 3.3.1, Writing Style General Guidelines,
in the NEC Style Manual states, ?Use positive language, rather than negative,
wherever possible.? Section 250.118 defines the types of equipment grounding
conductors and uses the singular of ?conductor? except in 250.118(10). Section
310.4 deals with conductors that are run in parallel. The language specifically
allows conductors 1/0 or larger to be run in parallel, which means conductors
smaller than 1/0 in general are not permitted to be run in parallel.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11
 
iwire said:
I agree entirely with your point, it is one of those oddities of the NEC. :roll:

I believe panel statements have basically said that 310.4 prohibits paralleling conductors smaller then 1/0 even though it really does not say that.


Yeah, just like the CMP's definition of bundling that isn't in the NEC, they know it, but just wont share it... :grin:
 
winnie said:
What in 310.4 _says_ that conductors smaller than 1/0 _cannot_ be paralleled? 310.4 _permits_ 1/0 and larger conductors to be connected in parallel, but does not explicitly prohibit paralleling smaller conductors.

Since the NEC is supposed to be a permissive code, doesn't this mean that parallel #10 conductors are compliant?

-Jon

I hear what you are saying but why would they bother to state that 1/0 and larger is permitted if the smaller sizes were permitted also. In my eyes, the wording is there to prohibit smaller than 1/0.

Now, what is the actual reason for not allowing smaller than 1/0-- I do not know. Theoretically it should work fine but I guess the margin for error is greater with paralleled conductors.
 
stickboy1375 said:
Yeah, just like the CMP's definition of bundling that isn't in the NEC, they know it, but just wont share it... :grin:

We are just supposed to 'Use the Force' and read their minds. :wink:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Now, what is the actual reason for not allowing smaller than 1/0-- I do not know. Theoretically it should work fine but I guess the margin for error is greater with paralleled conductors.


You know if someone needed an extra circuit there goes that paralleled conductor... :grin:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Theoretically it should work fine but I guess the margin for error is greater with paralleled conductors.
The factory parallels small conductors all the time inside RTU's. What I finds happens is that one termination of one conductor becomes marginal, and it melts down the remaining good conductor (mostly at the termination, which is typically a FastOn type terminal).
 
winnie said:
I know that this is the accepted meaning of 310.4, and I am not about to argue that the _concept_ of 310.4 as understood is wrong...but I have a question about the actual wording.

What in 310.4 _says_ that conductors smaller than 1/0 _cannot_ be paralleled? 310.4 _permits_ 1/0 and larger conductors to be connected in parallel, but does not explicitly prohibit paralleling smaller conductors.

Since the NEC is supposed to be a permissive code, doesn't this mean that parallel #10 conductors are compliant?

-Jon

I think exception 1) of 310.4 prohibits it.
Exception No. 1: Conductors in sizes smaller than 1/0 AWG shall be permitted to be run in parallel to supply control power to indicating instruments, contactors, relays, solenoids, and similar control devices, or for frequencies of 360 Hz and higher, provided all of the following apply: (a) They are contained within the same raceway or cable.
(b) The ampacity of each individual conductor is sufficient to carry the entire load current shared by the parallel conductors.
(c) The overcurrent protection is such that the ampacity of each individual conductor will not be exceeded if one or more of the parallel conductors become inadvertently disconnected.

Especially if you look at (c)
 
FWIW, I think any electrician that combines all the neutrals from multiple circuits is a lazy hack. There is simply no reason to do it that way, it creates EMF nightmares, and causes neutral current to flow where it shouldn't (code semantics aside.)
 
mdshunk said:
I think it's pretty funny that user 'C3PO' responds just a few posts after Bob suggests we "use the force". :smile:

That's his calling card.

I felt really safe this weekend, thanks to the excellent work being done by homeland security.
 
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