Multiwire onto single device

Status
Not open for further replies.
I spoke with the inspector this morning. I wasn't able to convince him at first, but he spoke with his senior inspector who confirmed that it wasn't a violation. The junior inspector called me back and there is no problem now.

He did mention he thought the receptacle might need to be tamper proof according to 2008 code, but said the NEC isn't exactly clear about plugs in a cabinet underneath the kitchen sink, so he passed me.
 
Last edited:
drive1968 said:
I spoke with the inspector this morning. I wasn't able to convince him at first, but he spoke with his senior inspector who confirmed that it wasn't a violation. The junior inspector called me back and there is no problem now.
Click to expand...

Did you invite Jr to become a member here?
 
drive1968 said:
I spoke with the inspector this morning. I wasn't able to convince him at first, but he spoke with his senior inspector who confirmed that it wasn't a violation. The junior inspector called me back and there is no problem now.

He did mention he thought the receptacle might need to be tamper proof according to 2008 code, but said the NEC isn't exactly clear about plugs in a cabinet underneath the kitchen sink, so he passed me.
Click to expand...


Well he was right about the tamper resistant requirement when you're under the 2008 NEC.
 
I spent some time today looking into the TR requirements for the DW/disposal. I agree that 2008 code requires a TR receptacle. I'm not yet on 2011 code, but it was changed to provide an exemption for dedicated receptacles.

(3) A receptacle located within dedicated space for an appliance that in normal use isn’t easily moved from one place to another.
 
Last edited:
dana1028 said:
I'm not sure I understand your response.

Are you saying the inspector was correct when he said a tamper resistant recep is not required in the 2008 code? [I don't see that the 2011 has changed this].
Click to expand...

The way I read it he said the opposite.


Roger
 
IMO, although I think this is not the intent, 210.52 does not include receptacles under the sink. Thus if a receptacle is installed for a disposal and dw under the sink, then it would not need TR.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
IMO, although I think this is not the intent, 210.52 does not include receptacles under the sink. Thus if a receptacle is installed for a disposal and dw under the sink, then it would not need TR.
Click to expand...

Yes, the way the 2008 was written the requirement was somewhat ambiguous. The 2011 cleared this up.
 
infinity said:
Yes, the way the 2008 was written the requirement was somewhat ambiguous. The 2011 cleared this up.
Click to expand...

I am not certain it does.
In all areas of 210.52 all non locking type 125v 15 and 20 amp receptacles shall be listed TR.
Click to expand...
Exception (3) in 2011 seems to allow non TR for Appliance area dedicated spaces. I guess the disposal area under the sink is not a dedicated space.

The question is- 210.52 does not talk about recep. under the cabinets. IMO, I would just install them and this change in 2011 will not affect me since it would be silly to stock both types receptacles.
 
I am not so sure that the receptacle under a sink for a disposal and/or dishwasher does not need to TR.

Here is the substantiation for the proposal, 18-71, that was submitted for the exception that the CMP accepted:

Substantiation: By allowing the exception for a single receptacle or duplex receptacle located within dedicated space will eliminate the need for tamper-resistant receptacles to be installed behind dishwashers, refrigerators, washing machines and the like.
Click to expand...

The receptacle under the sink is not behind the appliance it serves blocking access from a child nor is the area dedicated to an appliance only.

I pulled this from ROP 18-81:

Panel Statement: CMP-18 accepts in principle the intent of ?behind
appliances? see panel action and statement on Proposal 18-71.
Click to expand...
 
The funny thing is that the area under the kitchen sink is one of the most protected areas in the house. With all the cleaning chemicals under there, most parents of small children lock that cabinet up.
 
jumper said:
I am not so sure that the receptacle under a sink for a disposal and/or dishwasher does not need to TR.

The receptacle under the sink is not behind the appliance it serves blocking access from a child nor is the area dedicated to an appliance only.
Click to expand...
Derek I do tend to agree with you and I believe that is the intent. I wish they would just say all areas of a dwelling and attached buildings and leave it at that. I can't imagine too many ec's taking advantage of this except perhaps someone doing large apts. It may be worth it but I bet you spend more time with employees trying to keep things straight and having the correct recep. available.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Derek I do tend to agree with you and I believe that is the intent. I wish they would just say all areas of a dwelling and attached buildings and leave it at that. I can't imagine too many ec's taking advantage of this except perhaps someone doing large apts. It may be worth it but I bet you spend more time with employees trying to keep things straight and having the correct recep. available.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it probably creates more confusion than it is worth. What is the price difference between a standard and a TR rec? I am curious.
 
jumper said:
I am not so sure that the receptacle under a sink for a disposal and/or dishwasher does not need to TR.

Here is the substantiation for the proposal, 18-71, that was submitted for the exception that the CMP accepted:



The receptacle under the sink is not behind the appliance it serves blocking access from a child nor is the area dedicated to an appliance only.

I pulled this from ROP 18-81:
Click to expand...

ROP substantiations often have items that do not end up in the code.

2008 & 2011 [406.11 or 406.12] say, "...all areas specified in 210.52.' I cannot find anything in 210.52 that addresses undersink receps for dishwasher/disposals.

As an inspector I just refuse to tag someone if I can't back it up with a code section [or UL listing, etc.].
 
dana1028 said:
ROP substantiations often have items that do not end up in the code.

2008 & 2011 [406.11 or 406.12] say, "...all areas specified in 210.52.' I cannot find anything in 210.52 that addresses undersink receps for dishwasher/disposals.

As an inspector I just refuse to tag someone if I can't back it up with a code section [or UL listing, etc.].
Click to expand...

How about these:

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
(1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
(2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with
210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
(3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
(4) Located more than 1.7 m (51⁄2 ft) above the floor
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top