Murray breaker didn't trip!! AHHHHHH!!!!

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sparky76

Senior Member
Location
So Cal
Just got home after finishing what turned out to be quite a crappy day. Went to do a simple little job, or so I thought. Just adding a GFI receptacle and light outlet on an exterior wall w/ a switch for light inside. Tapped switch power off of interior receptacle.

Got it put together and flipped breaker on, breaker tripped. Isolated problem to new switch, but didn't see any thing visually wrong, so I pulled in a new romex feeder to switch, put it back together and flipped on breaker. This time light stayed on for a few seconds and then tripped.

Go back to panel to check breaker and it smells like burning plastic. Open cover and find the insulation melted off the red of the 14/3. Oh crap, it fried all the hots on that whole side of the circuit. All through the attic you could see the red exposed thru the melted semi- melted 14/3 sheathing.

So, was this my fault because i was troubleshooting something on my new work? Or do I go after Murray because their 70's era breaker didn't trip? Is it worth meggering or should I just go straight ahead and rewire it? I know that all power feeders on that circuit are shot, switch legs should be fine. Never used a megger...guess I'll be adding 1 to the stable.

Never used my liabilty ins. either, and not looking forward to it. Don't want to deal with the back and forth w/ the insurance co. Just want to get in there
and get this poor ladies house back together. Sure can't afford this right now though. Should I bring in the ins. co. and have them go after Murray?

AAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!! what to do, what to do. She has no power in her master bed and bath.
 
Fulthrotl

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Location
HB, CA (19 Hrs. 22 Min. from Winged Horses)
Occupation
E
sparky76 said:
Just got home after finishing what turned out to be quite a crappy day. Went to do a simple little job, or so I thought. Just adding a GFI receptacle and light outlet on an exterior wall w/ a switch for light inside. Tapped switch power off of interior receptacle.

Got it put together and flipped breaker on, breaker tripped. Isolated problem to new switch, but didn't see any thing visually wrong, so I pulled in a new romex feeder to switch, put it back together and flipped on breaker. This time light stayed on for a few seconds and then tripped.

Go back to panel to check breaker and it smells like burning plastic. Open cover and find the insulation melted off the red of the 14/3. Oh crap, it fried all the hots on that whole side of the circuit. All through the attic you could see the red exposed thru the melted semi- melted 14/3 sheathing.

So, was this my fault because i was troubleshooting something on my new work? Or do I go after Murray because their 70's era breaker didn't trip? Is it worth meggering or should I just go straight ahead and rewire it? I know that all power feeders on that circuit are shot, switch legs should be fine. Never used a megger...guess I'll be adding 1 to the stable.

Never used my liabilty ins. either, and not looking forward to it. Don't want to deal with the back and forth w/ the insurance co. Just want to get in there
and get this poor ladies house back together. Sure can't afford this right now though. Should I bring in the ins. co. and have them go after Murray?

AAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!! what to do, what to do. She has no power in her master bed and bath.
Click to expand...

rewire it, and thank whatever flavor of deity you salute.

if i had your kind of luck, i think i'd go buy a lottery ticket right now.
you are one lucky sob......

what'll it cost to replace the 14-3? $30 and 4 hours of your time?
don't even consider leaving melty wire in place.... 37 of us will come
over and slap you......:D

leave the liability insurance alone... you don't really want to have a
claim on it.... save it for when you really need it... like when the red
wire sets the house on fire.... :-(

you got a very strange christmas present today... you didn't have
to see how good your general liability policy is.

merry christmas.
 
L

Lcdrwalker

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
I will agree with fulthrotl. Count your blessings that a little melted insulation is all that you have to worry about. As far as insurance goes, what is your deductable vs. the cost to repair it? What will happen to your rates?
 
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sparky76

Senior Member
Location
So Cal
Uhh guys. I'm talking about rewiring a full convenience circuit. Maybe 12-15 items plus drywall repair, paint, etc. Possibly re-wallpapering a wall in the bathroom if I have to cut into it. Although I agree w/ Randy bout not finding out how good my liability is. I'm hoping I can minimize the drywall hole and I'm sure I can. I'm not worried about the 100-150 in materials, more worried bout the drywall, paint resoration.

You don't think I should go after the malfunctioning Murray?
 
nolabama

nolabama

Senior Member
Location
new orleans la
what would you say about the breaker - most likely the only thing that murray would do is replace the breaker - and do you really want to fight a breaker company in court over a few hundred bucks - i hope not
 
mxslick

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
You don't think I should go after the malfunctioning Murray?
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Ummm, no, since from your OP it sounds like the breaker DID do it's job..; to whit: (Bolds added by me)

Got it put together and flipped breaker on, breaker tripped. Isolated problem to new switch, but didn't see any thing visually wrong, so I pulled in a new romex feeder to switch, put it back together and flipped on breaker. This time light stayed on for a few seconds and then tripped.
Click to expand...

It has been discussed here many times, that a breaker is allowed to hold it's rated capacity indefinately, a 100% overload for several seconds (I think 20-30 was mentioned) and a 200% overload for a few seconds (5-10) and 300% is supposed to be pretty much immediate.

I would do as others have suggested and replace the damaged romex and oh yeah, replace that breaker too.

Cheaper than the insurance claim and going after Murray would be a huge waste of your time and money. Look at what happened with FPE. :D
 
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sparky76

Senior Member
Location
So Cal
Well- the breaker is designed to protect the conductors behind it. To prevent exactly this kind of situation. It failed and I'm looking at $1000.00 to repair the resulting mess. Of course I probably don't stand a choice against Murray/Siemens even w/ my team of lawyers ready to attack.
 
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wireguru

Senior Member
you have zero claim against murray. the breaker is 30 or more years old, and there is no telling what it had been subjected to during its 30+ years of service. All that would come from filing suit against murray is a judgment against you for their legal fees...

sorry to hear about what happened, but as others have said you are very lucky the damage is limited to this cable.
 
H

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
sparky76 said:
Got it put together and flipped breaker on, breaker tripped. Isolated problem to new switch,
Click to expand...
what was wrong with the switch?
but didn't see any thing visually wrong, so I pulled in a new romex feeder to switch,
Click to expand...
what was the thought process that made you pull a new feeder?
put it back together and flipped on breaker. This time light stayed on for a few seconds and then tripped.
Click to expand...
So you pulled a new feeder to the new switch (right?). Did you install a new breaker? Did you feed the old circuit from the new feeder? How did you determine the feeder was defective?
 
Rockyd

Rockyd

Senior Member
Location
Nevada
Occupation
Retired after 40 years as an electrician.
Going after Murray for a thirty year old breaker (notice most gear is warrantied for life), on an item less than $10,000? Are you out of your mind? Think we are expensive? Just wait till you are introduced to the real world of non-reality, and perception (known as the judicial system).

On top of that, think about how the total impact will affect your interactions with your community. Count yourself lucky that a little time, and money, is all this is going to cost you.
 
nolabama

nolabama

Senior Member
Location
new orleans la
on second thought you should sue - i can only imagine what a breaker companies lawer would do to my troubleshooting ability :-? i of course would bring all necassary test documents on the circut affected and with all my current certification on the proper use of the test equipment, nist certificates for my test equipment in hand and so on and so forth .... by the time the lawyers got done with me i probably would beg to rewire the house for free if i still had a license
 
wbalsam1

wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
sparky76 said:
.............................Go back to panel to check breaker and it smells like burning plastic. Open cover and find the insulation melted off the red of the 14/3. Oh crap, it fried all the hots on that whole side of the circuit. All through the attic you could see the red exposed thru the melted semi- melted 14/3 sheathing.
Click to expand...
...................
Sounds to me like a multi-wire branch circuit being worked hot with the neutral lifted for a brief moment which had the effect of creating a series-parallel circuit. :-?:smile:
 
B

billdozier

Senior Member
Location
gulf coast
im a little confused. Why cant u pull out the melted 14-3 wire and pull in a new 14-3 or did u fry all of the b phase circuits? As far as the breaker its thirty years old and it worked initially. What did u do at the switch after initial trip?
 
W

wireguru

Senior Member
electricmanscott said:
Do it! After they stop laughing tell us what they say.

I'm confused though. The thread is titled "Murray breaker didn't trip". But you said in your post that it tripped. I'm not following.
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good point, it should be 'i reclosed a murray breaker into a fault and melted 100 feet of romex buried in the walls'
 
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