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MWBC AFCI Tripping

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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Another option in this case is to put the fridge on the lighting circuit, which only serves the lights, with a combined draw of less than 1 amp.
Assuming this is a dwelling unit kitchen, you cannot do that. The refrigerator must be supplied by one of the small appliance branch circuits, or per exception #2 to 210.52(B)(1) by an individual branch circuit.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
I may have missed it in the replies, have you installed a new breaker and see if the issues goes away?

In addition, install a regular breaker and see if the issue continues.
 

ESolar

Senior Member
Location
Eureka, CA Humboldt County
Occupation
Electrician/Contractor
I may have missed it in the replies, have you installed a new breaker and see if the issues goes away?

In addition, install a regular breaker and see if the issue continues.
The issue seems to have been isolated to overloading, and unlikely arc fault (I did eliminate all back stabs in the process and rewire all receptacles to help eliminate any potential arc issues). Although, the old breakers did not trip under the same loads (which is why I was called back out), moving offending appliances to the other SABC produces identical behavior, indicating that it is either the load or appliances themselves, and not the circuit and breakers. And the NPRs are high enough to throw it. But it does appear that the new breakers blow at a smaller amperage as this is new - and that's not necessarily bad, it just is. So the kitchen appliances need to be configured accordingly.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
The issue seems to have been isolated to overloading, and unlikely arc fault (I did eliminate all back stabs in the process and rewire all receptacles to help eliminate any potential arc issues). Although, the old breakers did not trip under the same loads (which is why I was called back out), moving offending appliances to the other SABC produces identical behavior, indicating that it is either the load or appliances themselves, and not the circuit and breakers. And the NPRs are high enough to throw it. But it does appear that the new breakers blow at a smaller amperage as this is new - and that's not necessarily bad, it just is. So the kitchen appliances need to be configured accordingly.
New breakers don't "blow"/trip at lower amperage. They may have different trip curves, which effect how soon a breaker trips. But they should trip at the same current if they are working properly. You could have an old breaker that the internal parts are not functioning correctly, allowing more current than it should before it trips. You put in a new breaker and it trips much sooner. It's not that the new breaker trips on less current, it's the old one that isn't tripping when it should.
 

ESolar

Senior Member
Location
Eureka, CA Humboldt County
Occupation
Electrician/Contractor
New breakers don't "blow"/trip at lower amperage. They may have different trip curves, which effect how soon a breaker trips. But they should trip at the same current if they are working properly. You could have an old breaker that the internal parts are not functioning correctly, allowing more current than it should before it trips. You put in a new breaker and it trips much sooner. It's not that the new breaker trips on less current, it's the old one that isn't tripping when it should.
I looked it up. Yes - the amperage tolerance on a functioning breaker is low. It likely is, as you stated, time to trip, which is highly variable. These BRL220CAF breakers trip very quickly compared to the 1990s vintage BR20s.
 

Eddie702

Licensed Electrician
Location
Western Massachusetts
Occupation
Electrician
Fridge belongs on it's own circuit or on a small appliance circuit not on a lighting circuit.

To me multi wire with all the GFCI and AFCIs are just more prone to problems. I stay with single circuits.
 

ESolar

Senior Member
Location
Eureka, CA Humboldt County
Occupation
Electrician/Contractor
Fridge belongs on it's own circuit or on a small appliance circuit not on a lighting circuit.

To me multi wire with all the GFCI and AFCIs are just more prone to problems. I stay with single circuits.
I'm aware. Just pointing out that in todays typical kitchen, the lighting circuit is drawing less than 1 amp, leaving an essentially unused 15A circuit. A typical new fridge, even a new Subzero 48", only draws a few amps. The code is designed for safety and includes the possibility older existing equipment, e.g., 14 x 100W incandescent bulbs and a 12A fridge, neither of which are used in the vast majority of homes todays. It does not take into account site specific conditions where most modern kitchens (e.g., x-large with 14 LED 100W equiv. < 2A) would be fine with a fridge on the lighting circuit - barring flicker.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I'm aware. Just pointing out that in todays typical kitchen, the lighting circuit is drawing less than 1 amp, leaving an essentially unused 15A circuit.
That would be poor planning, because the kitchen lighting can be on the same circuit as the rest of the main-floor lighting, like the dining room, foyer, hallway, half-bath, etc.
 

Zelos Ravioli

Member
Location
San Jose CA
...Just pointing out that in todays typical kitchen, the lighting circuit is drawing less than 1 amp, leaving an essentially unused 15A circuit. ...
This got me thinking... Ive noticed more of an amp draw than should be there in older installations, where Ive installed LEDs years ago - do the LEDs light or driver draw/cause more resistance as they age? I think sometimes mix matched LEDs on the same circuit may cause more resistance sometimes - just wondering, do you think they get more resistance as they wear older?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Your right, less resistance. As in allowing more current through as they grow older or go bad. no controls or dimmers involved on these lights, so it is just the lights on the circuits.
Aha. I doubt it. All the source sees as its load is a power supply. The current probably drops as they age.
 
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