Mwbc and computers

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bpk

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If you have circuits that you know will be supplying multiple computers do you ever use multiwire circuits to feed them, I have done it in the past but I have always thought it might not be a good thing. What are your opinions?
 
In a data center, no I do not, the runs are generally short and reconfiguring latter is a pain with MWBCs (particularly under the 2008 NECs new rules for handle ties)

But in open office areas you bet I use MWBCs and as Pete says I don't lose any sleep.
 
Most of the engineers we deal with always spec individual grounded conductors for these types of circuits. IMO a simple over sized neutral with a MWBC would be a more economic design and serve the same purpose. My feeling is that the people paying the bill don't always know they're paying for a over designed system.
 
infinity said:
Most of the engineers we deal with always spec individual grounded conductors for these types of circuits.

We get that as well, but then the modular office furniture shows up in a MWBC configuration and that is a problem.
 
iwire said:
We get that as well, but then the modular office furniture shows up in a MWBC configuration and that is a problem.

Yup have seen that many times. A whip hanging out of the wall with separate grounded conductors for each circuit and a shared neutral in the furniture. Usually just safe off the extra neutrals. Someone wasted somebody's money. :rolleyes:
 
infinity said:
Most of the engineers we deal with always spec individual grounded conductors for these types of circuits. IMO a simple over sized neutral with a MWBC would be a more economic design and serve the same purpose. My feeling is that the people paying the bill don't always know they're paying for a over designed system.
Let me ask why would one need an oversized neutral for a MWBC? Is it for when you are sharing more than 3 circuits on the neutral? Because if just 3 circuits each on seperate phase then the neutral only carries the difference in amperage between circuits.
 
steelersman said:
Let me ask why would one need an oversized neutral for a MWBC? Is it for when you are sharing more than 3 circuits on the neutral? Because if just 3 circuits each on seperate phase then the neutral only carries the difference in amperage between circuits.


No, computer power supplies may create harmonic current with the neutral. This defeats the canceling effect and they become additive. So the neutral current for the MWBC with 3 circuits could be greater than the individual circuit current. In the most extreme case it's been calculated that fully loaded 20 amp harmonic circuits could have a shared neutral current of 1.73X the circuit current.
 
infinity said:
No, computer power supplies may create harmonic current with the neutral. This defeats the canceling effect and they become additive. So the neutral current for the MWBC with 3 circuits could be greater than the individual circuit current. In the most extreme case it's been calculated that fully loaded 20 amp harmonic circuits could have a shared neutral current of 1.73X the circuit current.
oh ok. So that's most likely what the mc cable I've seen that says superneutral is used for.
 
infinity said:
No, computer power supplies may create harmonic current with the neutral. This defeats the canceling effect and they become additive. So the neutral current for the MWBC with 3 circuits could be greater than the individual circuit current. In the most extreme case it's been calculated that fully loaded 20 amp harmonic circuits could have a shared neutral current of 1.73X the circuit current.
Do lighting circuits that are all flourescent ballasts create the same additive condition on the neutral from harmonics?
 
infinity said:
Yup have seen that many times. A whip hanging out of the wall with separate grounded conductors for each circuit and a shared neutral in the furniture. Usually just safe off the extra neutrals. Someone wasted somebody's money. :rolleyes:


Yeah that would be great. :smile:


(But lets say someone ran six 10/2 IG MC to each location as directed by the PM? :mad: )
 
Even though I love MultiWire Branch Circuits, with computers and such there is too much at risk to use them with extensive computer set ups. If the client can afford computers, they they can afford 2 extra wires.
Here is an example: The feed for the data room was one circuit for the computer stuff, one for the telephone system and one for a future fire alarm bell. My job was to install the fire bell wiring. Only one neutral was run [MWBC].The store was already running [a Target -- why would anyone shop there?]. The hot wire was no problem since the breaker was properly LOTO'd with a sturdy piece of electrical tape. But I didn't want to chance untwisting the wire nut on the neutral connection [done by who knows who? -- pre-twisted?] since if the wires were straight, then they could spring apart and shut off something disasterous.
So I used one of those brown, 3M, insulation piercing things to attach my third white wire to the system. It would have been better to use three white wires in this case.
~Peter
 
peter d said:
It's a Target, there are very important things happening there that can't be shut down. :roll:

Well they don't do blue light specials so that can't be it. Must be the blood pressure machine at the pharmacy. :grin:
 
This must be read more carefully:
I said: "The feed for the data room was one circuit for the computer stuff, one for the telephone system and one for a future fire alarm bell." That's 3 circuits sharing one neutral.
If I took the wire nut off the white wire and the 3 wires disconnected, then perhaps all the cash registers in the store would shut down or all the telephone service to the store or there might even be the dreaded "lost neutral" which could fry both. Not worth the risk.
It was not the blue light specials and not the pizza ovens.
~Peter
 
Years back I spent several decades working in a medical university and hospital. I designed an 'ambulatory I.C. room', and ran single circuit lines all over the place.

The rationale for single lines is this: Imagine one person on a respirator, and another person on a computer controlled auto-defibrillator, and etc. There must be no interaction between the circuits. There must be no computer supply noise or motor noise from one circuit bleeding across a shared neutral and getting into another computer operated machine. I have seen the electrical noise from an impact dot-matrix printer get into the UPS for a heart-monitoring system, and trip on the UPS until the battery ran down. I specified an isolation transformer to keep the utility equipment separate from the medical equipment.

In our E.M.G. lab, used for experiments, our high-impedance instrumentation amplifiers would pick up signals from commercial radio stations. I designed a Faraday room, experimented with three methods of grounding the screen walls. We eventually were able to keep the noise out, unless you opened the door three inches! Sorry, I diverge.

The OP question opened the door to recalling how one machine's noise could travel across the neutral and pass through a computer's power supply, to interrupt a computerized system. My example was the printer that tripped the UPS. It was an unexpected event, looking from the electrician's viewpoint. In designing within a medical scenario, we must look for the unexpected events and plan ahead.

That was years ago, and perhaps now, computer type equipment is better and quieter. It would be if I was still in that field.
 
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