MWBC with AFCI

[ramsy]

You frequently post that GFCI's and AFCI's don't work with many appliances and equipment.

I should have said most employees will be fired, before solving nuisance trips on the clock?

We have installed 1000's of GFCI's, AFCI's and DF breakers for the medium to high end custom homes we wire and get zero call backs for breaker trips.

Because breaker test buttons designed to fail while energized wont get call backs, and shift liability to occupants for violating listed instructions.

 

[ramsy]

The last 10+ years I have been purchasing exclusively SquareD breakers for residential so can't give much input on the other 3 manufactures. ..guessing most of the tripping issues are poor workmanship for the field electricians.

I agree Square-D is reputable with nuisance issues they can't solve. See option #2 in attached PDF:

 

[Jaybone812]

Here is a better link to the Siemens handle ties.

https://digitalcontentcenter.compas.siemens-info.com/SIE_FL_HandleTie_AFCI.pdf

The picture on the web site Jaybone linked to is incorrect.

the part number was correct but the pic is incorrect I copy and pasted the link without paying attention to the pic thanks for catching it and posting the link to the Siemens site

 

[curt swartz]

I should have said most employees will be fired, before solving nuisance trips on the clock?

Because breaker test buttons designed to fail while energized wont get call backs, and shift liability to occupants for violating listed instructions.

You seem to be all over the place with this.

You stated that AFCI's and GFCI's are not compatible with modern efficient appliances. I said we have not been having any problems and would hear about it from the GC's and homeowners if there was. Then you say we don't get call because the test button are designed to fail. Not sure where you are getting this info but it would have noting to do with compatibility of appliances.

I have never witnessed a failed test button. I doubt very homeowners know there are test buttons.

 

[ramsy]

The GFP of the breakers is/was the only part of the breaker that provides some real protection. Now that 3 of the manufactures have removed the GFP from some or all of their models those breakers have little value.

We debated this issue before, but you wont believe AFCI's can monitor for resistance without GFP.

 

[ramsy]

You seem to be all over the place with this.

I could be wrong, but I've always said AFCI & GFCI are the same junk, which violate UL 489, when test-buttons fail while energized.

I said we have not been having any problems and would hear about it from the GC's and homeowners if there was.

I could be wrong, but complaints to builders are less likely when known compatible appliances are specified for kitchen & laundry.

My clients in developments with specified appliances don't call the builder to fix unspecified refrigerators that trip GFCI outlets in the garage.

Trouble with specified appliances would likely be resolved in early-development cycles.

Developments that don't specify appliances can read members of this forum recommending swapping xFCI nuisances with standard breakers.

You don't know what DIY homeowners do, but you must know DIY renters avoid complaining for fear of rent increases.

YouTube & this forum is full of DIY advise for SPD's, spit shined bus, appliance swaps, or xFCI breaker upgrades at OEM expense.

I've also seen xFCI breakers stay in the tripped position for years, because occupants would rather use extension cords than pay me to fix it.

 

[ramsy]

I have never witnessed a failed test button.

In new developments SPD and sensitive xFCI electronics may not get destroyed right away, by utility excursions, or extreme temperatures.

I doubt very homeowners know there are test buttons.

It makes sense that old work, without SPD, may encounter more frequent test-button failures.

 

[hbiss]

Schneider Electric requests least intrusive / lowest cost option below be performed to resolve reported 2 Pole CAFI Circuit Breaker tripping.

Option 2 – Replace Square D Load Center with Competitor Offer that has equivalent 2P CAFI products to use existing wiring to the load center.

Amazing. Why don't we just get rid of these things??

-Hal

 

[Greentagger]

You seem to be all over the place with this.

You stated that AFCI's and GFCI's are not compatible with modern efficient appliances. I said we have not been having any problems and would hear about it from the GC's and homeowners if there was. Then you say we don't get call because the test button are designed to fail. Not sure where you are getting this info but it would have noting to do with compatibility of appliances.

I have never witnessed a failed test button. I doubt very homeowners know there are test buttons.

I find test buttons that do not function from time to time.

 

[ramsy]

Amazing. Why don't we just get rid of these things??

None of my clients are panel flipping brands to solve xFCI nuisance issues.

Overloaded utility xfmrs are eventually replaced, and the same static electricity on dry-windy days, nuisance trips xFCI outlets, behind 100ft of branch-wire impedance.

Cients must be educated to expect this, and demonstrate xFCI reset, with a tool if necessary. So when they call crying, you can repeat the drill over the phone.

Everybody is already used to getting screwed by insurance flight, the mortgage, paying rent twice for house & place of business, and afraid to answer the phone for unsolicited calls.

Whats one more mouth to feed, with baby sitting, for xFCI devices?