my dillema

[levelsquare]

i'm an electrician in the carolinas running work for a contractor. i've been with him for three years. every one of his jobs are so tight ( he's usually the lowest bidder ) that we usually all go over our allotted hours. his response is we're not pushing the men . my response is , there's not enough hours in the bid to do the job, especially when the men we get are helpers. so in order for him to make a profit, i have to either be a total yeller/screamer (like him) or i have to lay guys off every week and replace them with new guys. the jobs i've run are between 150k - 850k with an averave of 10-15% profit margin. my question is : am i way off base or is this guy not bidding his jobs correctly ?
the job i'm on right now is @ 150k with 10% profit margin . @ 5k of that goes to overhead . it's a remodel of an existing building and we have 10 weeks to do it . he figured it at 1600 hours which is 4 guys 10 weeks.
long story short , i just told him that after this job i'm not running work for him anymore & i want to go back to working with my tools . I said the extra few dollars an hour & the company pickup aren't worth the stress & headaches. i just signed up for a 2 day 24 hour refresher class to prepare my for my License . i figured the loss of the truck & a few bucks an hour can be easily made up by me doing my own thing a few nights a week and a saturday here and there , without the stress & BS.
any feedback would be appreciated. Oh , my experience is 13 years in Local #3 IBEW NYC & 3 yrs running work in my present job .

Thank you,
Levelsquare

 

[ItsHot]

If the owner can not see your side and work with you, let them have it! You would think that they would bid a job to where you could have some true electricians helping !

 

[emahler]

i will save you the trouble....you can make a profit at those prices...just cut overhead, be more productive and at the end of the day, it's management's fault that you can't get a bunch of underpaid, unskilled apprentices to perform like well-paid, skilled electricians...

does that answer your question?

 

[electricalperson]

hire real electricians

 

[emahler]

hire real electricians

easier said than done...when a job should be 1000 hours with qualified guys, but you try to bid it for 1000 hours with apprentices at 1/2 the wages, you can't afford to hire qualified guys...you also can't afford the 1500 hours that the apprentices will actually take...

but man, the top line looks good with all them jobs and the $ of sales...

 

[magictolight.com]

If your competent enough to be running work like that, why on earth are you sticking around? There are many other shops out there looking for good electricians like yourself. You can't put a price on being undervalued by your employer every day.

 

[Buck Parrish]

If the owner told you he was doing just fine at the crews current pace.
Then every one might slack off.
Just work at a steady honest pace and quit worrying so much about the what the boss thinks.
If he thought you we're not doing a good job he would get rid of you.
If he looses money on a job. The next one he will bid higher.

 

[nakulak]

he's not losing money. he's making his margin. guys like that will yank your chain for as long as you believe them. If you stick around, 10 years from now he will still be telling you this BS that he's not making any money and you aren't bringing the jobs in under budget just so he can screw you out of any bonus you might think you deserve. get your license, when the time is right move on with no regrets when the timing is good for you, and don't lose any sleep at night. don't even do him the favor of letting him know you know he is full of it, just do your best and get better at your trade in spite of it.

 

[Power Tech]

especially when the men we get are helpers.
Local #3 IBEW NYC

Thank you,
Levelsquare

Are you non union or in the IBEW at this job? As far as I remember, we had to pull workers out of the hall. We could only hire a certain ratio of apprentices per journeymen. Also, we could only hire a certain ratio of journeyman to forman.

 

[K8MHZ]

Are you non union or in the IBEW at this job? As far as I remember, we had to pull workers out of the hall. We could only hire a certain ratio of apprentices per journeymen. Also, we could only hire a certain ratio of journeyman to forman.

In Michigan the journeyman to apprentice ratio is the LAW and no helpers are allowed. (Finally!!)

I worked for a guy like this once, he was always underbidding work and yelling at us because we couldn't do the job in the time he bid it. He is now out of work, out of business and had creditors up his rear since day one.

I would bet that the job the OP is speaking of is non-union. If not, the BA needs a serious talking to!!

 

[levelsquare]

unfortunatley , this is a right to work state & i'm working non union. if i could work union i would but i'm actually getting paid more than the union guys here. I have a participating withdrawal card & still pay my dues to the IBEW.
the last 2 jobs i ran for him both made money. probably not as much as he wished he did but i had the same situation on those jobs too. i was the only qualified guy , with a bunch of helpers and maybe one or two guys who were barely journeymen. i had to lay out everything , order material , engineer the job ( as far as conduit runs , circuitry etc ) , do time , cost coding/labor tracking , make sure deliverys were correct , etc etc etc. His theory is this : bid low and make money on extras & change orders , but i don't think you can depend on xtras & c/o's on every job to make money.
i appreciate the feedback & think i'm doing the right thing in getting my license . In New York i didn't need to run jobs or do side work because my scale was $44 per hour plus bennies ( back in 2006 ). maybe it's a blessing in disguise because now i'm motivated to get off my ass and do something on my own , even if it is only a side job here and there . like i said , i don't think i'll have a problem making up the difference by not running work or having the free truck. i've actually turned down so much work over the last few years it's silly.
thanks for your posts .

Levelsquare

 

[aline]

Where I'm at for commercial projects the state requires a ratio of 1 journeyman electrician for 1 apprentice electrician.

Contractors don't always comply with this though.

Sometimes inspectors will come around the job and check up on this.

 

[levelsquare]

thanks for the feedback guys. can't wait to get my license . there's a few guys in this company who've taken the test several times already & failed.

Level

 

[emahler]

Good luck, but what's your plan? How do you intend to get work at better margins than your current boss?

 

[e57]

California also has a JW - App/ET, but NO ONE follows it.....

Anyway - I feel your pain - on the running work on cut throat budgets - I have been there several times. Training and running revolving hacks... The finger pointing if the numbers don't match on an under bid... I've gotten that when whole pages have been missing from the bid - I kid you not!

Much of this is due to bean counters act as estimators looking for volume instead of profit/quality. Many of them have forgotten or never really knew what it took in the first place - what it really took to get something done.

I cheer you for wanting to do better - but have you looked outside lately? The economic climate is big thunder heads and it will be tough to get out there and compete with a little capitol, and few contacts. And learning by your own mistakes can be a real bummer... JMSO It is cut-throat out there right now.

The alternative is a big cup of coffee with the slave driver and stating your position - I'm sure he values it - or he would not have kept you around.

 

[Rewire]

Five years ago I would have told you to hand in your resignation and find a better place to work but that was five years ago. Today what I will tell you is a job ,any job is something to hang on to.If you tell him you are no longer going to run work then you have made yourself of less value to him and placed your head on the chopping block.

 

[levelsquare]

i don't think i will be of less value to him because if i work with my tools i'd be the best journeyman/lead man he has , hands down . and he knows it. if i do something , you won't need somebody to go back and check it or fix it. if you saw the caliber of journeymen he has you would be shaking your head. i'm usually the first one there in the morning and i don't look to skip out early . plus , going through an accredited 5 year apprenticeship in LU #3 IBEW is more than i can say for most guys in this state.
as far as my plan , i'm not looking to go after any big jobs . small stuff . you had to start somewhere , right ? i'm also involved to a certain degree in the community.
i'm probably going to look at some of the state jobs in the area or one of the colleges ( there are several to choose from ) and still do my thing on the side. they will pay you more if you are licensed , and some require one. i'm still relatively young , so i have some time to kill.

again , thanks for the input .

Levelsquare

 

[emahler]

don't mistake my question...i don't care if you start big or small...what is your plan?....there are hundreds of contractors looking to take your work (whether large or small) from you...some will offer better service...most will try to cut your throat on pricing...how do you plan on combating this?

 

[levelsquare]

my plan , is to work my 40 hrs with my current employer or somewhere else , and do this on the side for now. like i said , i've turned down a lot of work over the last few years . i know the quality of my work . if a potential customer goes with someone else for whatever reason , so be it. i'll survive .i have friends & co-workers coming to me all the time to do side work , only they don't do it the right way ( no license).
i was on craigslist the other day . a small general contractor who builds screened in porches & decks wants an electrician to install some fans & switches and maybe a flood light per job. was willing to pay $350 per job. only reason i didn't get it ? guess . no license .
i know the economy is bad right now, but it's not that bad . especially if this is something i'm only doing part time right know to make a few extra bucks . and if i don't get any side work ? i'll stay home and spend time with my kids.

Level

 

[bradleyelectric]

This may seem odd to you, but for $350. depending on what install "some fans & switches and maybe a flood light per job." means you would probably spend your time better with the family. If it was "a fan, a switch and maybe a spot" maybe.

If we get past the sarcasm currently ramped someone might post a link to a break even calculator and how to use it properly as opposed to figuring you don't have any overhead and whoring yourself out for wages on "side jobs". There are a lot better ideas as to how to make money other than cut your prices and run the vans short of fuel on here normally. You may have to wait till we get done with the current programming though.