My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

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scwirenut

Senior Member
My local makes everyone run a #8 conductor from the panel box to the pressure conn :confused: ector screw on the side of the motors used in hydromassage tubs. He says that the branch circit conductor (#12) is not large enough to handle the difference in potential that the bonding addresses using #8 solid. He agrees the purpose of the screw is for bonding exposed metal. Its what happens to the bonding after the fact(#8) that he wont budge on.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

I do not believe the code requires the bonding jumper to be extended back to any panelboards. The purpose of the bonding is to simply put all metal parts assoicated with the tub in a equipotential condition. The equipment ground is for the purpose of establishing an effective fault current path.
 

scwirenut

Senior Member
Re: My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

he says that FPN 's are just opinions and part of the code, plus that section is for swimming pools. I tried that already, thanks
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

It is NOT "just opinions:"

90.4(C) Explanatory Material. Explanatory material, such as references to other standards, references to related sections of this Code, or information related to a Code rule, is included in this Code in the form of fine print notes (FPNs). Fine print notes are informational only and are not enforceable as requirements of this Code.
FPN: The format and language used in this Code follows guidelines established by NFPA and published in the NEC Style Manual. Copies of this manual can be obtained from NFPA.
One of their purposes is to assist AHJ's to understand how to interpret Code. Even if they were "just" opinions, they are the opinions of the CMPs and their opinions form the intent.
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
Re: My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

I understand the fact that that is for swimming pools, but it is the same concept.

I agree, FPN's are not enforcable, they are informational. Information is what your inspector needs.

BTW: Since your inspector seems to know the code so well, why doesn't he give you a code reference? 680.74 sure doesn't require this.
 

scwirenut

Senior Member
Re: My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

his reference is that he says the #12 EG on the branch circuit is not sufficient for the #8 of the bonding. I see that its a clear case of not understanding the difference between (bonding for fault current) and (bonding for voltage graidiants) if there is a difference. and if so, is the difference documented........thanks RP
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

This case is a good example for the fact that understanding the theory behind the code requirement makes understanding the code requirement itself easier.

As has been mentioned, this is bonding for equipotential reasons only - nothing to do with opening an OCPD.
Good Luck!

Pierre
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

Originally posted by pierre:
This case is a good example for the fact that understanding the theory behind the code requirement makes understanding the code requirement itself easier.

Well said Pierre.

Roger
 

scwirenut

Senior Member
Re: My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

the problem is with the #8 conductor, if the code allowed a #12 for bonding of pumps/motors, then he would allow the 20amp branch EG to serve. I beleive the purpose in sizing this bonding to #8, is stricty for durability and strength, he sees it as ampacity., I guess the real question is that who can prove the reason code requires a #8 for bonding..........RP
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Re: My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

Reason shmeason! Whatever the reason for the requirement does not change what is required. #8 back to the panel is not required. I really wonder sometimes if some of these "Inspectors :roll: " have ever actually done any electrical work.
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: My Local cheif electrical inspector's wont budge

Print this and give it to your inspector:

Hydromassage tub installations are covered by Section 680.70 in NEC 2002. Since there appears to be confusion about the difference between grounding and bonding, let?s go back to the basics. The requirements for the bonding of a hydromassage tub are found in Section 680.74, Bonding. In order to answer this question let?s review the following sections that apply to this type of installation:

"680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems, metal parts of electrical equipment, and pump motors associated with the hydromassage tub shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid. Metal parts of listed equipment incorporating an approved system of double insulation and providing a means for grounding internal nonaccessible, non-current-carrying metal parts shall not be bonded."

Let?s examine what bonding really is. Since there is not a definition of bonding that is specific to Article 680, we must refer to the definition of bonding found in Article 100.

"Bonding (Bonded): The permanent joining of metallic parts to form an electrically conductive path that ensures electrical continuity and capacity to conduct safely any current likely to be imposed."

In this case we are discussing bonding as it pertains to "the permanent joining of the metallic parts" of a hydromassage tub as required by Section 680.74. This requirement is to tie all metal parts together to insure that they are at the same potential. This requirement for bonding just requires you to bond the metal parts together, even though in reality, in most instances it will be tied back to the grounding electrode system through the equipment grounding conductor that is run to the pool equipment with the branch -circuit wiring. This requirement for bonding should not be confused with the requirement for grounding as provided to the pump motor by the equipment grounding conductor which is usually required to be a 12 AWG wire for a 20-amp circuit. The bonding requirement of Section 680.74 does not require you to run the required 8 AWG conductor back to the panelboard feeding the circuit that runs to the pump motor. There was a new fine print note added to Section 680.26(A) in the 2002 NEC that clarifies the intent of this requirement and should probably be added to Section 680.74 also.

"680.26(A), Performance. The bonding required by this section shall be installed to eliminate voltage gradients in the pool area as prescribed.

"FPN: This section does not require that the 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode." ? Jim Maldonado, CMP-17
 
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