Mysterious Power Loss

[wmgeorge]

Power Loss

Power Loss

I found an 1 1/4 EMT service entrance conduit that had been cut open (?)(POCO side of meter) and the #2 wires tapped. The tapped wires went into the ground and disappeared. Never could find where they went. I cut off the taps and taped them up.

The HO had lived there for 20 years, and never noticed (it was in a detached garage. I gave them a price to replace the service. They were low on funds, so they had a cousin from out of town come up and replace the service.

Truth is stranger then fiction!

Well I'm headed up tomorrow (Sat. 6/29/06) to see what I can find. In the past week or so I've given him some homework and this is what he's found:
Now bear in mind we are talking kWH usage here per month has doubled. His meter was changed to a digital one, so he can easily read the usage per day, which is about 80. Also somewhere along the way he has purchased a clamp on amp meter. BTW he has checked by R&R and inspection the water heater elements. So in the course of amping things he discovered that on each of his two separate GEC, one to the "new" ground rod outside, the other "old" one connected to his really old copper/steel water system going to the street in lead pipe. Did I say really old? Anyway they both are reading some amperes. Which I understand is normal.

My suggestion to him was to clean up the old water pipe ground connection and land it in his service box right on, or as close as he could get to the new ground,(all done by a local electrician.) Now he has nearly 11 amps or so on these ground wire(s) when turning on some 120 volt only loads.

My question before I get up there, I would assume that 0 zero amps on the GECs would be ideal. But am I correct in thinking that the higher the amp draw, the more likely the PoCo neutral connection at the really old power pole connection, is not good. The town is so small they have to sub contract out the repairs on the power lines, which means they would need to spend money to actually have someone come out from 30 miles away to fix.

And now the really good question... what does all this have to do with increased kWh usage??

 

[wmgeorge]

Power Loss

Power Loss

Well a trip up narrowed it down some. The electrician who did the work to the meter and grounded the service did fine as far as he went; but lots of grounding and bonding issues still remain.
I believe he has something with a partial short to ground, but until the circuits are correctly fused (ie: 15 amps in place of all the 30's), ran back to the panel and grounded, it would be like finding a needle in a haystack.
My suggestion was to do all of the above, and then think about having the service panel replaced, and new wiring ran to replace the old. Thanks to one and all for the help!!

 

[hillbilly]

I hope that you told him to hire a electrician and find the problem NOW!Before he does anything else like sleep in that house again. 11 amps on his GEC is a symptom of serious problem. IMO...Fire or electrocution are a real possibility.
Not trying to be a alarmist (well maybe), but it needs to be fixed NOW!
steve

 

[ramsy]

I agree with the urgency, if there is a ground fault in progress that won't trip. Perhaps the faulted part of the grounding grid has a loose, high-Z, corroded, or no bonded path to the svc.neutral, so that plumbing to earth becomes the predominant path.

As I understand, city centers of old towns have been known to provide parallel returns to the utility grid (neutral bonds) across the street thru the plumbing networks.

This idea would be easy to rule out by monitoring the right grounding cl/amp reading, while manually tripping one breaker at a time.

 

[adrian33773]

Before I became an electrician I lived in my sister's garage which had been converted to a two bedroom apartment. It was also detached from the house with underground feeders. After a heavy rain the lights seemed dimmer. She was complaining that her electric bill was $500.00 per month. The only major appliance that was running was a 20,000 BTU/240V air conditioner. There was also the sprinkler system pump in the closet. Now that I've gone she turns off the breaker to the garage except when she wants to run the sprinklers, which is only during the dry season. So most of the time she has the circuit turned off. Now her electric bill is only $200.00 per month. I asked an electrician if it was possible for power to get lost in the ground and he told me that there was no load and that it was not possible without a load. I asked him how he passed the test to become a journeyman and he got angry? So I guess I should go back and figure out where all that power is going.

 

[hillbilly]

I had a recent post about a old house that I was called to. The service ground was broken completely in two. The un-balanced current was returning thru the plumbing, down the street, to the neighbors service. A plumber was working under the house (crawl space) when I arrived! If he had opened that bond to the plumbing, he could have been killed.
If the current is returning thru the plumbing, it could also have other parallel paths, some of which may get HOT (as in fire) at that level of current.
No time to procastinate.
steve

 

[benaround]

Ask him if the hot water has been real hot during this period,if so the new

elements will probally cure it. They work all day long at 120vac from a close

break in the element to the grounded tank.

 

[wmgeorge]

Power Loss

Power Loss

Ask him if the hot water has been real hot during this period,if so the new

elements will probally cure it. They work all day long at 120vac from a close

break in the element to the grounded tank.

He has replaced both elements. My current assignment for him is to un-screw all fuses (yes its an old service) and put his clamp on ampere meter on the mains. Un-plug or turn off all the loads and then screw in fuses one at a time and check the amp draw. This is an old knob and tube house, and it has been remodeled... so I suspect ANYTHING now. At least he has the service grounds now done right, and the the right fuses installed. I'll guess that either I or the local electrician will be replacing the main panel in the near future.

 

[benaround]

wmgeorge,

He replaced both elements, that's good, what did they look like when he took them out?

Were they any good, were they broken,did he look them over?

Changing parts can get expensive and still leave you with the same problem

that you started with. If he just took out two good elements and replaced

them with new ones,whats the point! The point is to find out first if, for

example, the h.w. elements were good or bad by testing them first and

then you know where you stand. Well, best of luck to you.

 

[wmgeorge]

Power Loss

Power Loss

This may sound strange, but here we go............
You stated in your post,
"for years and years his usage averaged 600 to 900 Kwhr per month"
and in a another place you said
"the PoCo changed out his meter"
The meter thing is probably where the power mystery comes from.
Meters are notorious for slowing down over a period of years. In fact, at the Utility where I work, the metermen try very hard to test/replace meters every so often just because they slow down and can become very inaccurate.
Now, depending on the part of the country you live in and your PoCo's metering policy, that old meter may have in fact been spinning for 20 years or more and may have never been tested or calibrated. Your friend/relative in fact may have been getting a super bargain on his power for a long time previous to the change of the meter.
Usage for a home with three people and the usual appliances and a garage/ workshop could easily totol 1500+ Kwhr.
If you could come up with a recording meter and take a two or three day test, you may find that the old meter was a better "friend" than you realised

You know, after all the checking that he and I have done, plus two local electricians... as of today nothing out of the ordinary has been found. Except of course for the installation of correct fuses and the proper grounding and bonding of the electrical service as noted in other posts. Unless the underground was leaking current to ground, only on rainy or damp days... and that load has now been replaced by the Air Conditioner running ?? He now reads the new digital meter every day and uses a clamp on to check circuits, so perhaps we will find something yet. BG