NATIONAL ELECTRIC CODE 2023 - Section 200.4(C) Public Input

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mtnelect

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
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Southern California
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Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
The grounded white conductor of a ground-fault protected circuit shall be identified by one continuous black, red or blue colored stripe. This is a correction from previous PI's to match the correct title of the amendment.
 

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don_resqcapt19 said:
There is ZERO safety reason for this type of rule...the NEC is a safety code and not a code to make it easier for incompetent people to do electrical work.
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The unintended consequences of GFCI/AFCI are causing life safety issues. All the categories of circuits that are required to apply in NEC are a potential life safety issue. When they trip unexpectedly this causes disruption to the appliances connected to them. A refrigerator that is disconnected while the occupant is away from the home. A garage door opener that is disconnected when the occupant is leaving or arriving. A HVAC system that is disconnected when the outside temperature is 100+ degrees. A life safety's breathing appliance that suddenly stops working.
Then the annoyance of repeated resetting the breaker over and over again. This is the consequences of a new required device that can protect and at the same time cause potential harm when not properly wired. My amendment will make sure there is no crossed wired neutrals that will cause these devices to trip randomly and at the same time provide the protection they were designed for.
 
I am in total agreement with Don! Absolutely no reason to make this a code requirement. I have been doing electrical work for 45 years and this has never been a issue. This would just add more unnecessary requirements in the code.
 
mtnelect said:
The unintended consequences of GFCI/AFCI are causing life safety issues. All the categories of circuits that are required to apply in NEC are a potential life safety issue. When they trip unexpectedly this causes disruption to the appliances connected to them. A refrigerator that is disconnected while the occupant is away from the home. A garage door opener that is disconnected when the occupant is leaving or arriving. A HVAC system that is disconnected when the outside temperature is 100+ degrees. A life safety's breathing appliance that suddenly stops working.
Then the annoyance of repeated resetting the breaker over and over again. This is the consequences of a new required device that can protect and at the same time cause potential harm when not properly wired. My amendment will make sure there is no crossed wired neutrals that will cause these devices to trip randomly and at the same time provide the protection they were designed for.
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Sorry, they are going to trip the very first time there is any load if they neutrals are crossed or connected together, so the issue will be discovered. it is not a safety issue. There is never a random trip from a crossed or combined neutral with the currently available GFCIs.
This is a rule whose only purpose would be to help those who do not have the knowledge and training to do electrical work, do electrical work.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Sorry, they are going to trip the very first time there is any load if they neutrals are crossed or connected together, so the issue will be discovered. it is not a safety issue. There is never a random trip from a crossed or combined neutral with the currently available GFCIs.
This is a rule whose only purpose would be to help those who do not have the knowledge and training to do electrical work, do electrical work.
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My first encounter with "Phantom" tripping was around 1993, on a service call. The customer was having issues with a bathroom GFCI. It would trip without cause randomly. As "Murphy's Law" would have it, the last junction box is where I found the hallway neutral crossed with the bathroom neutral. Only when the hallway light was turned on, would the bathroom GFCI trip.
 
If so then what, a different color stripe with each load side so they don't get mixed up.
NEC issue:
What if it was in a building with different systems. Direct conflict with 200.6 (D)

Edit,
What if we had DF breakers in a panle. The stripes grounded conductor would start at the panle.
Then the engineer designed circuit 1 and 7 of a 120/208 and they were put in same raceway. We would have two white with black stripes conductors. Then we step back to 200.4 (B) anyway.
Just a quick thought
 
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mtnelect said:
My first encounter with "Phantom" tripping was around 1993, on a service call. The customer was having issues with a bathroom GFCI. It would trip without cause randomly. As "Murphy's Law" would have it, the last junction box is where I found the hallway neutral crossed with the bathroom neutral. Only when the hallway light was turned on, would the bathroom GFCI trip.
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That can't happen any more as the neutral ground fault detection circuit required by UL 943 for GFCIs will trip under that condition when you turn on the power.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
That can't happen any more as the neutral ground fault detection circuit required by UL 943 for GFCIs will trip under that condition when you turn on the power.
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In my example, the GFCI would not sense the crossed grounded conductor until the hallway light was turned on. The bathroom GFCI already had the power on.
 

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  • ULGroundFaultProtectiveDevices.pdf
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Tulsa Electrician said:
If so then what, a different color stripe with each load side so they don't get mixed up.
NEC issue:
What if it was in a building with different systems. Direct conflict with 200.6 (D)

Edit,
What if we had DF breakers in a panle. The stripes grounded conductor would start at the panle.
Then the engineer designed circuit 1 and 7 of a 120/208 and they were put in same raceway. We would have two white with black stripes conductors. Then we step back to 200.4 (B) anyway.
Just a quick thought
Click to expand...

Then Section 200.6(D)(3) would kick in.
 
mtnelect said:
In my example, the GFCI would not sense the crossed grounded conductor until the hallway light was turned on.
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I don't believe that's correct. Don was not referring to the usual current imbalance detection, which I agree would not be triggered if there is no load on either circuit involved.

Rather, the GFCI standard was updated some time ago to detect downstream neutral-ground faults, even under no load conditions. Any mechanism that would detect a neutral to EGC fault downstream would also detect a neutral to other neutral fault downstream. Since either way, it's a fault to a conductor connected to the service grounded conductor and which doesn't pass through the GFCI receptacle.

Cheers, Wayne
 
I couldn't find anything about "Neutral Ground-Fault Detection" on the update to UL 943, only a "Self-Testing" update that was implemented on June 29, 2015, which included:
1) Inadvertent mis-wiring of the line and load connections
2) Devise self-checking
3) Improved surge protection
4) Increased corrosion protection
5) End of life denial when GFCI reaches its useful life expectancy.
 

Attachments

  • UL 943 - Self Test .pdf
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mtnelect said:
I couldn't find anything about "Neutral Ground-Fault Detection" on the update to UL 943, only a "Self-Testing" update that was implemented on June 29, 2015, which included:
1) Inadvertent mis-wiring of the line and load connections
2) Devise self-checking
3) Improved surge protection
4) Increased corrosion protection
5) End of life denial when GFCI reaches its useful life expectancy.
Click to expand...
from EC&M
Grounded neutral. In a situation where the load side neutral is grounded and a ground fault also occurs, a parallel path through the GFCI for the ground fault current could exist. The portion of the ground fault current returning on the neutral conductor will not be sensed as differential current. This has the effect of desensitizing the GFCI. Therefore, the UL standard requires that GFCIs trip with a 6mA ground fault even when the neutral and ground are connected. To meet this requirement, GFCIs trip when the load side neutral and equipment grounding conductors are joined, even if there is no ground fault.
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The sensing system for a grounded neutral in the GFCI cannot tell the difference between a connection from the GFCI circuit neutral to another neutral or an EGC.
 
mtnelect said:
My amendment is about crossed neutrals only.
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The sensing circuit cannot tell the difference between a crossed neutral and a neutral to EGC fault...electrically they are the same thing. The currently available GFCIs will trip when you energize them if there is a crossed netural.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The sensing circuit cannot tell the difference between a crossed neutral and a neutral to EGC fault...electrically they are the same thing. The currently available GFCIs will trip when you energize them if there is a crossed netural.
Click to expand...

So, lets eliminate crossed neutrals with my amendment.
 
mtnelect said:
So, lets eliminate crossed neutrals with my amendment.
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They no longer exist, so ZERO need for that change.
This is just another attempt to dumb down the code so unqualified people can do electrical work...not the direction the code should be moving in.
 
I was on a job that had trace colors for the neutrals in the specifications, Colored Conduit(s) per service usage.
Nothing exposed, Inspector openly stated why aren't all jobs like this...

It is a public institution, and the Architect/ Engineer wasted the County's money, JMO!
 
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