I would like to hear comments back from a near miss that happened at our facility yesterday to help me implement better procedures. An electrician was working in a 6"x6"x4" tap box. The box had live wires inside it tapped with a wire nut feeding and exsisting machine. He was pulling wires inside this box to change to another feed when we go down in a few days. He was just going to leave these wires inside here until we go down and then cut power and refeed at that point. While he was pulling wires the wire nut ,which was taped, came off causing the machine to go down but did not cause injury.( Very Fortunate) This was a 600 volt feed. Question: is it ok to do this by code? He was not dressed out with any special protection besides safety glasses. We have went back and and said will not pull inside a live tap box but this does constrain us alot. Next question : is it ok to penetrate say a MCC to install a piece of conduit while its hot? We do this time from time normally a good foot from anything that is hot inside the MCC. I guess my question is can we get next to hot wires that are not exposed, safely? I appreciate any help in this area. Thanks Mike.
Near Miss
- Thread starter zmikc115
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Near Miss
You need to hang around me for a day to truly appreciate the knack that clumsy people like myself have for hurting themselves. Normal people just can't appreciate how easy it is for a klutz to accidentally slip and be a foot from where they intended to be.
You need to hang around me for a day to truly appreciate the knack that clumsy people like myself have for hurting themselves. Normal people just can't appreciate how easy it is for a klutz to accidentally slip and be a foot from where they intended to be.
Wear protection, always.
zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
Re: Near Miss
The Limited approach boundary for 600V is 3'6". The NFPA 70E requires work done inside of the LAB of exposed live parts to be done only if deenergizing the equipment would cause additional hazards (I.E. shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment). If work is conducted live inside the LAB it requires an energized electrical work permit, and the proper PPE for electric shock and arc flash protection.
It sounds to me like your facillity is doing this work "hot" because it is more convenient than a shutdown.
The Limited approach boundary for 600V is 3'6". The NFPA 70E requires work done inside of the LAB of exposed live parts to be done only if deenergizing the equipment would cause additional hazards (I.E. shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment). If work is conducted live inside the LAB it requires an energized electrical work permit, and the proper PPE for electric shock and arc flash protection.
It sounds to me like your facillity is doing this work "hot" because it is more convenient than a shutdown.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Near Miss
This is why it is always safer to shut off the power before doing electrical work. You just never know what might happen.
Fortunately no one was injured, but it is possible the next time you won't be as lucky.
This is why it is always safer to shut off the power before doing electrical work. You just never know what might happen.
Fortunately no one was injured, but it is possible the next time you won't be as lucky.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Near Miss
The NEC has nothing to do with issue. Call OSHA and ask them what they think. In the meanwhile, I would get a copy of the NFPA 70E.
The NEC has nothing to do with issue. Call OSHA and ask them what they think. In the meanwhile, I would get a copy of the NFPA 70E.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Near Miss
Zog,
Don
Zog,
Are insulated wires "exposed live parts"?
Don
Re: Near Miss
Exactly ! Are the wires considered to be exposed even though they are insulated? Does the tap change the definition being that the wires are tapped? I understand the code referring to exposed but my question I am struggling with does this situation fall under exposed? I would guess you could do this type work with proper ppe but looking for input. Is it permisible to pull more more wire through a conduit that has live insulated wires already in conduit if you use proper PPE?
Exactly ! Are the wires considered to be exposed even though they are insulated? Does the tap change the definition being that the wires are tapped? I understand the code referring to exposed but my question I am struggling with does this situation fall under exposed? I would guess you could do this type work with proper ppe but looking for input. Is it permisible to pull more more wire through a conduit that has live insulated wires already in conduit if you use proper PPE?
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Near Miss
There is simply no way to determine whether the tapping was done properly. Even if you had done the tapping job yourself, there is no way for you to tell if anything had been changed or adjusted since you last saw the inside of the box. So I would say that an insulated splice should be treated the same as "exposed live parts."
There is simply no way to determine whether the tapping was done properly. Even if you had done the tapping job yourself, there is no way for you to tell if anything had been changed or adjusted since you last saw the inside of the box. So I would say that an insulated splice should be treated the same as "exposed live parts."
Re: Near Miss
Upon entering a existing enclosure of the nature,you should carefully inspect the conductors and the joints,in taking the associated sets of conductors under single wirenut(s), and give a gentle tug or twist, making sure the splice is secure in inspection, then folding them to outside of inclosure, out of harms way. Personally,I wouldn't have put a fish-tape in the enclosure,without in doing the such.
Uncovering and finding a splice with wirenut bound by electrical tape, would maybe raise a flag to any trained electrical eye of the field.
Upon seeing the such on wirenut, first impression should maybe have been a possible "bad-joint"(splice).
If you must work hot.. In the future,make prep of the existing conductors in the enclosure first, inspect..
I'm not always provided, with the extreme of protection,and also can't speak for everyone's method.
But if I can, I'll at least "doubled-up" some cardboard, in some sort of separation and limited protection in the pulling, working energized.
[ October 04, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
Properly installed wirenuts ,installed on the correct amount & sized conductors, just do not "pop-off". Pushing a fishtape,and adding new circuits to existing junction/pullboxes are in fact done all the time, with the circuits still energized.
Upon entering a existing enclosure of the nature,you should carefully inspect the conductors and the joints,in taking the associated sets of conductors under single wirenut(s), and give a gentle tug or twist, making sure the splice is secure in inspection, then folding them to outside of inclosure, out of harms way. Personally,I wouldn't have put a fish-tape in the enclosure,without in doing the such.
Uncovering and finding a splice with wirenut bound by electrical tape, would maybe raise a flag to any trained electrical eye of the field.
Upon seeing the such on wirenut, first impression should maybe have been a possible "bad-joint"(splice).
If you must work hot.. In the future,make prep of the existing conductors in the enclosure first, inspect..
I'm not always provided, with the extreme of protection,and also can't speak for everyone's method.
But if I can, I'll at least "doubled-up" some cardboard, in some sort of separation and limited protection in the pulling, working energized.
[ October 04, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Near Miss
Your electricians are taking a chance with their lives if you they messing around with 600 volts live, or any voltage for that matter. But these higher voltage can cause enormous arc flashes which can cause grievous injury.
All it takes is a slight nick in the wires somewhere, or as you discovered - a loose connection, for disaster to strike, and a second later your electrician is lying on the floor with no hair and 3rd degree burns.
Do yourself and your company a favor: convince them to schedule shutdowns before someone gets seriously injured or killed.
Your electricians are taking a chance with their lives if you they messing around with 600 volts live, or any voltage for that matter. But these higher voltage can cause enormous arc flashes which can cause grievous injury.
All it takes is a slight nick in the wires somewhere, or as you discovered - a loose connection, for disaster to strike, and a second later your electrician is lying on the floor with no hair and 3rd degree burns.
Do yourself and your company a favor: convince them to schedule shutdowns before someone gets seriously injured or killed.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Near Miss
dillon,
You're not actually suggesting your methods would make this live work "safe" are you?
As long as anything is live, nothing is safe. That's the bottom line, and no amount of inspecting, checking or using pieces of cardboard can make live work safe.
And as long as the industry continues to value production over human life, nothing will change.
dillon,
You're not actually suggesting your methods would make this live work "safe" are you?
As long as anything is live, nothing is safe. That's the bottom line, and no amount of inspecting, checking or using pieces of cardboard can make live work safe.
And as long as the industry continues to value production over human life, nothing will change.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Near Miss
NFPA 70E Exposed (as applied to live parts) Capable of being inadvertenly touched or approached nearer than a safe distance by a person. It is applied to parts that are not suitably guarded, isolated, or insulated.
NFPA 70E Exposed (as applied to live parts) Capable of being inadvertenly touched or approached nearer than a safe distance by a person. It is applied to parts that are not suitably guarded, isolated, or insulated.
Re: Near Miss
It sounds like we all have different comfort levels of working with wires that are hot but not "exposed". It sounds like that wires that are insulated would not be considered exposed if I hear that right. I do agree though that a wire could have a nick in it and present a concern. Does anyone feel that these wires that could be tapped would fall under the "working on exposed rule"?
It sounds like we all have different comfort levels of working with wires that are hot but not "exposed". It sounds like that wires that are insulated would not be considered exposed if I hear that right. I do agree though that a wire could have a nick in it and present a concern. Does anyone feel that these wires that could be tapped would fall under the "working on exposed rule"?
zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
Re: Near Miss
Don,
I was about to reply to your question about "exposed" but it looks like you found the answer. I agree with your (The 70E) definition of exposed.
Don,
I was about to reply to your question about "exposed" but it looks like you found the answer. I agree with your (The 70E) definition of exposed.
Re: Near Miss
I just read this part..This would be a "Definite No"..
Came back to edit: ..zmikc,
See your profile says a Maint.Manager,and I must ask..
*Have you any electrical background, what so ever in this field sir?
[ October 04, 2005, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
umm,
I just read this part..This would be a "Definite No"..
Came back to edit: ..zmikc,
See your profile says a Maint.Manager,and I must ask..
*Have you any electrical background, what so ever in this field sir?
[ October 04, 2005, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Near Miss
I don't understand why anyone would need a rule or law that prevents them from working on equipment or circuits while energized. To me this is like knowing not to stick a fork in your eye.
I don't understand why anyone would need a rule or law that prevents them from working on equipment or circuits while energized. To me this is like knowing not to stick a fork in your eye.
Re: Near Miss
yes have worked with and around 575 volts for many years. And so far I see many difference of opinions and thats why I am asking to see what is code. We all have our opinions but that does not make it right.I have to go back with an answer that will allow us to work safely yet be able to perform our work.One reason I posted was that I asked a major contractor with over 500 electrical employees and they do not see a violation here. So again yes I do have electrical knowledge but it seems in our profession many different opinions exsist on how to get the work done. I want to get it done safely without going overboard. My stance at this time is not to pull wires into a tap box with live wires or other conduit even without taps. I would like to back this up with something written besides just my own opinion and thats what I'm looking for. To me it does not sound like an insulated wire inside a junction box is exposed or does someone read it that way? I would rather fault on the side of safety and would argue that way, just looking for 70E or Nec to support that decision. Thanks to everyone who has given their time. I still think that their are too many different opinions on the electrical safety subject for us to be where we need to be. Some argue use common sense.
yes have worked with and around 575 volts for many years. And so far I see many difference of opinions and thats why I am asking to see what is code. We all have our opinions but that does not make it right.I have to go back with an answer that will allow us to work safely yet be able to perform our work.One reason I posted was that I asked a major contractor with over 500 electrical employees and they do not see a violation here. So again yes I do have electrical knowledge but it seems in our profession many different opinions exsist on how to get the work done. I want to get it done safely without going overboard. My stance at this time is not to pull wires into a tap box with live wires or other conduit even without taps. I would like to back this up with something written besides just my own opinion and thats what I'm looking for. To me it does not sound like an insulated wire inside a junction box is exposed or does someone read it that way? I would rather fault on the side of safety and would argue that way, just looking for 70E or Nec to support that decision. Thanks to everyone who has given their time. I still think that their are too many different opinions on the electrical safety subject for us to be where we need to be. Some argue use common sense.
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: Near Miss
I don't think there are that many differences of opinion regarding electrical safety. You'll find very few that would deny that what you describe is an unsafe and downright dangerous work practice. The question is, what level of risk are we or anyone willing to take for the dollar? Driving our car is an unsafe practice, as in the United States there are about 40,000 that die annually in automobile accidents. That doesn't prevent us from driving though, does it?
In the final analysis, the decision to perform dangerous, high risk tasks still lies with each and every one of us. We may risk losing a job by our decsision but what would one rather do, lose a job, arm, or life? The choice is ours.
Bob
I don't think there are that many differences of opinion regarding electrical safety. You'll find very few that would deny that what you describe is an unsafe and downright dangerous work practice. The question is, what level of risk are we or anyone willing to take for the dollar? Driving our car is an unsafe practice, as in the United States there are about 40,000 that die annually in automobile accidents. That doesn't prevent us from driving though, does it?
In the final analysis, the decision to perform dangerous, high risk tasks still lies with each and every one of us. We may risk losing a job by our decsision but what would one rather do, lose a job, arm, or life? The choice is ours.
Bob
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