NEC 2017 210.52(C)(3)

[Dennis Alwon]

Jumper asked me a question yesterday when I posted the 2017 rule so I thought I would throw it out here

Looks like if we have a peninsula that is unbroken by any appliance, sink etc then the outlet on the wall where the island connects to will suffice. In the image below the receptacle at the end would not be needed in the 2017. Agree?

(3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop long dimension space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connected perpendicular wall.

 

[david luchini]

The way I read that, neither the receptacle at the wall nor the receptacle at the end of the peninsula comply. Neither is installed at the countertop "long dimension space."

 

[charlie b]

David has a good point, and I would be hard pressed to win an argument against it. But temporarily setting that point aside, I could (if I so desired) interpret the rule as saying that you are not on the peninsula until after you leave the connecting wall. Put another way, since you measure the peninsula from the wall, the wall itself is not part of the peninsula. Using that interpretation, my answer to Dennis would be no.

Now setting the entire code aside, again temporarily, what would we want the homeowner to have? My answer is that the HO should be able to select a spot on the peninsula to set an appliance, and that appliance's cord should reach an outlet. Is the one outlet at the connecting wall enough to accomplish that desired effect? I think so. Bottom line: if I were designing a private residence (and I am doing several at the moment), and if the HO said they didn't want an outlet at the end of the peninsula (I've had similar requests from the HOs), I would be willing to leave it off, and not believe I had violated the code.

 

[JohnE]

So with the new wording, a typical kitchen countertop is 25" +/-. Is the entire top a peninsula? It seems that a better definition of "kitchen counter peninsula" is needed.

 

[david luchini]

I found that this wording was in the first draft of the revision to 210.52(C)(3), but was removed in the second draft.

A receptacle in a wall countertop space shall be permitted to serve as the receptacle for a peninsular countertop space where the spaces arecontiguous and the receptacle is located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the peninsular countertop.

It seems to have addressed Dennis' question about whether the receptacle at the wall could serve as the peninsular countertop receptacle. The answer seems to be "no."

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The way I read that, neither the receptacle at the wall nor the receptacle at the end of the peninsula comply. Neither is installed at the countertop "long dimension space."

Wouldn't (C)(5) exception deal with that

Exception to (5): To comply with the following conditions (1) and (2),
receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than
300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop or work surface. Receptacles
mounted below a countertop or work surface in accordance with this
exception shall not be located where the countertop or work surface
extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base.
(1) Construction for the physically impaired
(2) On island and peninsular countertops or work surface where the
surface is flat across its entire surface (no backsplashes, dividers,
etc.) and there are no means to mount a receptacle within
500 mm (20 in.) above the countertop or work surface, such as
an overhead cabinet

 

[charlie b]

Wouldn't (C)(5) exception deal with that

I don't think it would. I believe David's point (looking at the precise wording of the new article) is that the receptacle can't be at either end, it has to be somewhere along the long edge. Now since there is no backsplash along the long edge, you can put it on a vertical surface under the countertop, so long as you meet the distance rules.

 

[david luchini]

Wouldn't (C)(5) exception deal with that

I don't see anything in that exception that removes the requirement to be installed at the peninsula long space dimension.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't see anything in that exception that removes the requirement to be installed at the peninsula long space dimension.

I see the receptacle at the end being in the long dimension space. I think the idea is to have the outlet on the end not on the side- IDK

 

[jumper]

Sections like this gimme a head ache.:rant:

 

[steve66]

Sections like this gimme a head ache.:rant:

I'll second that.

I don't see anything in that exception that removes the requirement to be installed at the peninsula long space dimension.

But it doesn't say the receptacle has to be along the "long dimension", it says along the "long dimension space".

There is no definition for "long dimension space." It could include the ends of the peninsula, or it may not.

I don't see how anyone could say for sure that its one way or another.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Jumper asked me a question yesterday when I posted the 2017 rule so I thought I would throw it out here

Looks like if we have a peninsula that is unbroken by any appliance, sink etc then the outlet on the wall where the island connects to will suffice. In the image below the receptacle at the end would not be needed in the 2017. Agree?

Dennis you are 100% correct. The intent of the new language is to remove the " connecting edge" in terms of a counter and placing the demarcation line on the perpendicular wall to which the peninsular attaches. in the case of this image the measurement is from the perpendicular wall.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thanks Paul. I thought that was what they were after. We can go nuts here at the forum on wording.... Do you know why they took the words away in the draft that David mentioned

A receptacle in a wall countertop space shall be permitted to serve as the receptacle for a peninsular countertop space where the spaces are contiguous and the receptacle is located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the peninsular countertop.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Hmm...I am sorry as I did not read David's post. I will go back and read it and if I have anything to add I will.

For the record I think this change is a poor one. It potentially leads to use of extension cords on holidays and so on....I am sure PI's will bring resolution in 2020.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

The way I read that, neither the receptacle at the wall nor the receptacle at the end of the peninsula comply. Neither is installed at the countertop "long dimension space."

Disagree. Based on the measurement from the perpendicular wall, that is where the measurements begins and it just so happens a receptacle serving the counter top wall space can serve the Peninsular space as well. The long dimension takes into account the minimum sizing requirements and the wall counter space out from the wall counts...so any amount of Peninsular beyond the wall counter would still be served.

Is it a good change....I don't think so but as it reads and intended that the wall space receptacle can serve both needs and unless the Peninsular is split up into multiple spaces a single wall receptacle will serve to meet the requirements.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

I found that this wording was in the first draft of the revision to 210.52(C)(3), but was removed in the second draft.



It seems to have addressed Dennis' question about whether the receptacle at the wall could serve as the peninsular countertop receptacle. The answer seems to be "no."

Yes, it was my understanding that the efforts focused on removing the connecting edge confusion. However, it was argued that the 6' aspect was not needed and that indeed a wall space receptacle can serve it. I do expect the language to creep back in because it just makes sense because the change creates a problem.

I will check with a friend who is on that CMP and get more details of the argument that removed it at the PC stage.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

I believe too much is being read (my opinion) into this poor code change item. The long dimension is measured from the perpendicular wall and simply a measurement point.

(3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop long dimension space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connected perpendicular wall.

It is also believed that we have a double statement of an unneeded "long dimension" statement placed incorrectly which creates poor language but it will last until 2020. It doesn't change the intent.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Anyway.....I can agree that the wording again leaves much to be desired. I can also kinda see where David is coming from in a between the lines interpretation which would create a real concern for the CMP. However, I hate the change but could possibly live with it IF gets a required receptacle on that penisular..closer to its real working space. Personally I liked the old connecting edge statement. I think public inputs can clear it up but again I find this change a step backwards which forces me to want to enforce it David's way because I want that receptacle out there..

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Figured you all would like this PC comment by Keith at IAEI. It was rejected...

"I urge CMP-2 to accept this Public Comment and return this Code language to its previous text in the 2014 NEC. By accepting the Public Input and First Revision at 210.52(C)(3), safety for the user (typically the homeowner) is lessened from the previous requirements for a receptacle at a peninsular countertop. The language accepted at the First Draft stage would allow a receptacle outlet at the connecting wall (which serves the base countertop) to also serve the peninsular countertop. The end of the peninsular countertop could be as far away from the wall receptacle as 1.8 m (6 ft). Under the 2014 NEC, a peninsular countertop that measures 600 mm (24 in.) by 900 mm (36 in.) (measured from the connecting edge) would require at least one receptacle outlet (located at the peninsular countertop) to serve that peninsular countertop. Under the proposed text of the 2017 NEC, this same peninsular countertop would require ZERO receptacles at the peninsular countertop as the countertop could be served by the wall receptacle [that could be up to 1.8 m (6 ft) away from the end of said countertop]."

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Because I hate the wording I think I would (if I was an AHJ) require that receptacle to be indeed in the long dimension side forcing it out where it can be needed. So ignore my origional opinion..lol...I like David's way of thinking for safety and just because I hate this change.

Maybe a PI is not needed now if we enforce it that way....I am OK with that now...

Thank you David for making me think that way..as I might feel like it's workable now.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.