NEC 2017 210.52(C)(3)

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FYI- just got off the phone with an individual in the know. Wanted to address Dennis question about the 6' language. While keiths PC was rejected it made total sense. By moving that connecting edge they helped the measurement but leaving the 6' language created a situation where no receptacle could be needed to serve on the peninsular countertop...which was less safe than in the previous edition. Now in the IAEI AOC it says " The final language at 210.52 (C)(3) allows a receptacle outlet at the connecting wall (which serves the base countertop) to serve the peninsular countertop as well"

They also go on to say " This 6' restriction was removed at the 2017 NEC Second Draft stage allowing the wall receptacle outlet to serve the base countertop as well as all the peninsular countertop, regardless of the length of the peninsular countertop."

That is also what was conveyed to me by a panel member...but as you can see a member I talked to today did not agree....BUT again I like David's way of thinking...I can only bring you what was expressed to me...and sorry for the multiple posts....I kinda got into this one as I like these kinds of conversations..sorry.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
Anyway.....I can agree that the wording again leaves much to be desired. I can also kinda see where David is coming from in a between the lines interpretation which would create a real concern for the CMP. However, I hate the change but could possibly live with it IF gets a required receptacle on that penisular..closer to its real working space. Personally I liked the old connecting edge statement. I think public inputs can clear it up but again I find this change a step backwards which forces me to want to enforce it David's way because I want that receptacle out there..

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
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LOL...I said penisular...lol....good grief
 
steve66 said:
I'll second that.



But it doesn't say the receptacle has to be along the "long dimension", it says along the "long dimension space".

There is no definition for "long dimension space." It could include the ends of the peninsula, or it may not.

I don't see how anyone could say for sure that its one way or another.
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Steve...since IAEI seems to think one way and printed it as such I decided to submit for an informal interpretation(opinion) from NFPA just to see what they say because their handbook still shows the receptacle at the peninsular space ifself to support David's position....and no added explanation. I will post what they happen to say.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
Steve...since IAEI seems to think one way and printed it as such I decided to submit for an informal interpretation(opinion) from NFPA just to see what they say because their handbook still shows the receptacle at the peninsular space ifself to support David's position....and no added explanation. I will post what they happen to say.
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Paul I hope you are having good conversations with yourself...:D Hey at least it is helping you think it through. Thanks for the work on this..:thumbsup:
 
LOL.....sorry. I just disliked the change and what was origionally expressed by the CMP I origionally spoke with so it touched a nerve. I am so hoping David is right but as with my original post...the long dimension space is being interpreted as the entire space. I just like closure.

Plus wife is shopping and I am extremely bored and thinking about her final shopping spree totals.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
LOL.....sorry. I just disliked the change and what was origionally expressed by the CMP I origionally spoke with so it touched a nerve. I am so hoping David is right but as with my original post...the long dimension space is being interpreted as the entire space. I just like closure.

Plus wife is shopping and I am extremely bored and thinking about her final shopping spree totals.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
Click to expand...


My feeling is the entire passage was to do away with the connecting edge and delete the need for the receptacle at the end. I don't like it either but I get it. My feeling is that if someone were using the receptacle at the end of the peninsular the appliance would only be there temporarily. IMO, the space at the end of the peninsular would be easier to use then the wall receptacle

Sure there could be issues as you stated but if someone puts a wall receptacle one inch to the right of the peninsular on the wall then they should have done their homework (math) better... LOL

Hey my wife just spent $700 on fabric this month...She retired and started quilting -- it's killing me
 
Yep. I guess I hate the thought of a 12' long peninsular not having a receptacle. Previously we measured from that imaginary edge....forcing one on the actual peninsular space. Like I said I am more than ready to change my view....just don't care for the language really but is what it is I guess.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
Yep. I guess I hate the thought of a 12' long peninsular not having a receptacle. Previously we measured from that imaginary edge....forcing one on the actual peninsular space. Like I said I am more than ready to change my view....just don't care for the language really but is what it is I guess.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
Click to expand...
But even with a receptacle at the end of the peninsula you still have at least 8 feet of counter that would otherwise require at least one more receptacle if it were not a peninsula.

An argument against receptacles being required on the side of a island or peninsula for years has involved young children pulling a hot cooking appliance onto themselves by pulling the power cord of that appliance. I don't know the best answer other then to use pendant receptacles or "pop ups" to cover this space - and you know how well that will go with the interior designers.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
FYI- just got off the phone with an individual in the know. Wanted to address Dennis question about the 6' language. While keiths PC was rejected it made total sense. By moving that connecting edge they helped the measurement but leaving the 6' language created a situation where no receptacle could be needed to serve on the peninsular countertop...which was less safe than in the previous edition. Now in the IAEI AOC it says " The final language at 210.52 (C)(3) allows a receptacle outlet at the connecting wall (which serves the base countertop) to serve the peninsular countertop as well"

They also go on to say " This 6' restriction was removed at the 2017 NEC Second Draft stage allowing the wall receptacle outlet to serve the base countertop as well as all the peninsular countertop, regardless of the length of the peninsular countertop."

That is also what was conveyed to me by a panel member...but as you can see a member I talked to today did not agree....BUT again I like David's way of thinking...I can only bring you what was expressed to me...and sorry for the multiple posts....I kinda got into this one as I like these kinds of conversations..sorry.

Comments based on the 2017 National Electrical Code.
Click to expand...


So the peninsular can be served with a receptacle on the furthers edge out & the wall receptacle shown could be eliminated
 
Greeting Gents,

while I have not heard back from NFPA as of yet regarding their informal opinion (for what it's worth). I did want to provide you with information I received from no less than (2) CMP members on that committee. I should also say they are good friends of mine and I respect them completely so ask their name and I will not provide, these are members who have always put the code first in my opinion.

They agree with my assessment that based on how it is worded right now and how shown in the IAEI AOC document. the wall receptacle that is serving the wall counter-top space can also serve the peninsular counter space as well without limitation. The fact remains that more work will be needed in the 2020 cycle to clean up this issue. Based on that I would remain (even if I don't like it) that my original response is still the facts in this case.

Their effort was to only deal with the connection edge issue. As it stands now the AHJ will have to make the call but I can tell you that based on the fact receptacles have to be on or above the counter-top space...the exception to place the receptacle below the counter-top if flat along the entire surface is an issue since by the nature of the new connecting edge you will have the ability to place it within the on or above (not more than 20') general rule.

So I loved this debate and it can be interpreted any way that anyone would like....I don't like the change as it did not increase user safety and again created an issue on peninsular where the wall receptacle serves that "long dimension space" is available the peninsular counter-top could be unlimited length. Yes, it could been the same with the old connecting edge but at least it placed a receptacle at some point on the actual peninsular itself irrelevant to the counter-top wall space receptacle.

So I think most of us can come up with a fix for this using David's thinking and have no doubt CMP 2 will as well.

Regardless if you want to know I will still post NFPA's response if desired.
 
Follow-Up from NFPA

Here is their informal response to the question:

To: Paul Abernathy,


The language as written in 210.52(C)(3) allows the wall receptacle at the connecting edge of the peninsular countertop to serve the base countertop as well as the peninsular countertop, regardless of the length of the peninsular countertop.





XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sr. Electrical Engineer
 
MasterTheNEC said:
Follow-Up from NFPA

Here is their informal response to the question:

To: Paul Abernathy,


The language as written in 210.52(C)(3) allows the wall receptacle at the connecting edge of the peninsular countertop to serve the base countertop as well as the peninsular countertop, regardless of the length of the peninsular countertop.





XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sr. Electrical Engineer
Click to expand...

Well, that is a step backwards. Removing a required receptacle instead of adding one.
 
MasterTheNEC said:
Follow-Up from NFPA

Here is their informal response to the question:

To: Paul Abernathy,


The language as written in 210.52(C)(3) allows the wall receptacle at the connecting edge of the peninsular countertop to serve the base countertop as well as the peninsular countertop, regardless of the length of the peninsular countertop.





XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sr. Electrical Engineer
Click to expand...


The only time a peninsula needs a receptacle on the actually cabinets is if it is broken by an appliance, sink, etc. Some people will like this as they feel a receptacle at the end is dangerous because of cords. Of course that will still be the case in some scenarios
 
jumper said:
Well, that is a step backwards. Removing a required receptacle instead of adding one.
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Why do you say that? Why does each new layer of rules each code cycle count as progress? I would consider it progress if the code makers would get rid of more of these design requirements in 210.

Then we could move on to 310. There's a lot of changes there that weren't progress.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Jumper asked me a question yesterday when I posted the 2017 rule so I thought I would throw it out here

Looks like if we have a peninsula that is unbroken by any appliance, sink etc then the outlet on the wall where the island connects to will suffice. In the image below the receptacle at the end would not be needed in the 2017. Agree?




ry%3D400
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The last recep on the left of the picture would need to be a double duplex recep and then you wouldn't need one in the cabinet.


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blkmagik21 said:
The last recep on the left of the picture would need to be a double duplex recep and then you wouldn't need one in the cabinet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I don't know where you got that from...Can you show me an article that states what you said?
 
This is what is proposed in the Massachusetts Amendments for 2017...

(3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop long dimension space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A receptacle in a wall countertop space that directly faces a peninsular countertop shall be permitted to serve as the receptacle for the peninsular space where the spaces are contiguous and the receptacle is located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of its most distant edge.
 
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