NEC 2020 230.85 Emergency Disconnects

[paulcoulston]

Fellow NJ Electricians welcome to the NEC 2020 LOL. For those of you that are on it. I just wanted to know how your AHJ is interpreting NEC 230.85.

• You are changing the frayed Service Cable on a existing Service. My AHJ requires you to add the Emergency Disconnect
• You are changing the meter socket. My AHJ requires you to add the Emergency Disconnect.
• Meter, service cable, and service panel, that's a no brainer. My AHJ requires you to add the Emergency Disconnect.
• ATS is easy , It must go outside and it becomes Emergency Disconnect and Service Disconnect.

NEC 230.85

First line states

For one- and two-family dwelling units, all service conductors shall terminate in disconnecting means having a short-circuit current rating equal to or greater than the available fault current, installed in a readily accessible outdoor location.

So you are changing the service conductors NOW THEY MUST NOW terminate in the Emergency Disconnect. MY AHJ interpretation.

Comments please !!

 

[Billyv2000]

Following for code interpretations.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I assume Billyv2000 is the inspector??? haha

Well If all you need to do is replace the riser and the meter and that is what is on the permit then it I would agree with the Paul that is all he is responsible for. Let me be clear that the NEC does not have anything to say about it and different areas have different interpretations so it will be an authority having jurisdiction call. I would ask the inspector to get a decision from the state inspector.

Our state engineer has stated specifically you are only responsible for what you permitted. Argument often goes like this. We have a storm that takes down the riser or mast now are we required to upgrade the entire service?

If I had the job I would have told the customer that we should get up to code and install the disconnect but it is not an NEC requirement.

 

[Billyv2000]

LOL!! No, but our plan reviewer and I have different interpretations. Just here to see what other interpretations are.

 

[Billyv2000]

Dennis, what is your interpretation on NEW one and two family construction? Does this code section (NEC 230.85) do away with “back to back” installations?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, what is your interpretation on NEW one and two family construction? Does this code section (NEC 230.85) do away with “back to back” installations?

If by back to back you mean meter outside and panel inside then Yes it does away with back to back installs.

 

[Todd0x1]

If by back to back you mean meter outside and panel inside then Yes it does away with back to back installs.

Well you just put a meter/main combo outside and your loadcenter inside no?

 

[paulcoulston]

I assume Billyv2000 is the inspector??? haha

Well If all you need to do is replace the riser and the meter and that is what is on the permit then it I would agree with the Paul that is all he is responsible for. Let me be clear that the NEC does not have anything to say about it and different areas have different interpretations so it will be an authority having jurisdiction call. I would ask the inspector to get a decision from the state inspector.

Our state engineer has stated specifically you are only responsible for what you permitted. Argument often goes like this. We have a storm that takes down the riser or mast now are we required to upgrade the entire service?

If I had the job I would have told the customer that we should get up to code and install the disconnect but it is not an NEC requirement.

I assume Billyv2000 is the inspector??? haha

Well If all you need to do is replace the riser and the meter and that is what is on the permit then it I would agree with the Paul that is all he is responsible for. Let me be clear that the NEC does not have anything to say about it and different areas have different interpretations so it will be an authority having jurisdiction call. I would ask the inspector to get a decision from the state inspector.

Our state engineer has stated specifically you are only responsible for what you permitted. Argument often goes like this. We have a storm that takes down the riser or mast now are we required to upgrade the entire service?

If I had the job I would have told the customer that we should get up to code and install the disconnect but it is not an NEC requirement.

Do you have this in writing "Our state engineer has stated specifically you are only responsible for what you permitted. " I would not want to be sitting in a court room defending WHY I did not install the Emergency Disconnect when I changed the Service cable then there was fire at the house and for some reason the Fire Department was unable to disconnect the power and there was a fatality. I know it sounds unlikely to impossible this would happen but I'm a worry wart.

 

[tortuga]

I know it sounds unlikely to impossible this would happen but I'm a worry wart.

well from what I have seen, court goes like this;
The AHJ has zero liability. Zilch, Period, full stop, end of story.
If the AJH missed something, or the EC snuck it by him, or they are buddy buddyies, too bad EC is still responsible for all their work.

Now say the homeowner tinkered with their own wiring, and a electrical fire breaks out, now fire dept shows up and oppsie no emergency disconnect.
Per OSHA safety protocol they keep away until POCO can arrive to pull the primary cut out, the house burns longer than if it had the emergency disconnect.
FD just prevents it from spreading by wetting down the adjacent homes / area.

Next Home owners insurance company goes after EC's insurance and 'subrogation' in sues, as the EC you'll never appear in court, your insurance co will retain a expert witness to argue on your behalf, likewise the homeowners insurance co.

And months later they will deliberate before a judge who has no technical background at all.
Occam's Razor prevails and the simplistic easy to understand arguments win every time, code requires this, the EC tired to cut corners.... etc
There is also a popular perception that contractors are always 'cutting corners' so its an uphill battle to defend the odd ball code exception or 'legal' shortcuts an EC took, even if yes the code can be read that way.
Likely an out of court settlement is reached.
Then your insurance rates get adjusted accordingly.
And life goes on.

 

[shortcircuit2]

Fellow NJ Electricians welcome to the NEC 2020 LOL. For those of you that are on it. I just wanted to know how your AHJ is interpreting NEC 230.85.

• You are changing the frayed Service Cable on a existing Service. My AHJ requires you to add the Emergency Disconnect
• You are changing the meter socket. My AHJ requires you to add the Emergency Disconnect.
• Meter, service cable, and service panel, that's a no brainer. My AHJ requires you to add the Emergency Disconnect.
• ATS is easy , It must go outside and it becomes Emergency Disconnect and Service Disconnect.

NEC 230.85

First line states

For one- and two-family dwelling units, all service conductors shall terminate in disconnecting means having a short-circuit current rating equal to or greater than the available fault current, installed in a readily accessible outdoor location.

So you are changing the service conductors NOW THEY MUST NOW terminate in the Emergency Disconnect. MY AHJ interpretation.

Comments please !!

In Massachusetts we amended 230.85 to guide that the emergency disconnect was not manditory for repairs to risers and metersockets. We also added a remote control option for areas like Boston where it was impractical to locate emergency disconnects outside. The remote is also helpful for large services in mcmansions.

Massachusetts exceptions to 230.85:
Exception to (1), (2), and (3): A building supplied by a service lateral or by underground service conductors shall be permitted to be capable of disconnection from a readily accessible location outside of the dwelling by using a method providing remote control of the service disconnecting means, and marked: EMERGENCY ELECTRICAL DISCONNECT and NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT. Markings shall comply with 110.21(B).
This section shall only apply to the following:
(1) New one- and two-family dwellings, or new buildings of double occupancy, at least one of which is a dwelling unit.
(2) Two-family dwellings or buildings of double occupancy at least one of which is a dwelling unit, and newly created by subdivision of an existing one-family dwelling.
(3) One- and two-family dwellings where the service(s) is (are) entirely replaced.
(4) One- and two-family dwellings where the service(s) is (are) increased in capacity in terms of its (their) rating in amperes.

 

[garbo]

Why can't smart meter manufacturers come up with a pushbutton or some other device to disconnect the load side of single phase smart meters. They already have contacts that can disconnect power from a remote signal. Would save customers a lot of money. Can see a lot of new houses having the outdoor emergency disconnect feeding an outdoor panel and circuit breakers installed outdoors especially GFCI & AFCI appear to have a shorter life span. Rather have all of my circuit breakers in a nice clean dry basement. In my area every few years during a heavy snow fall snow will drift 4 to 6' high onto basement door and over meter socket making it time consuming to access outdoor disconnect. Recently saw a U Tube video where an electrical contractor was installing a Square D combination meter socket, service panel, and emergency panel that's feed from a generator. He said it was very heavy and wish he gave the price for it. Was told at an IAEI class that type NM cable is not approved for damp locations and appears that you can not therefore use it to feed any outdoor luminares or receptacles. So if somebody has a 42 circuit outdoor panel one way to terminate NM cables would be to drill large holes ,install several 2" diameter nipples to an 6 by 6"' wide by 2' long trough that's mounted indoors then only bring out the white & black conductors and terminate the grounds to a mega ground bar inside of trough. Between that ,high price of copper wire and expensive AFCI breakers homeowners might need to take out a home equity loan to.pay for this.

 

[readydave8]

Was told at an IAEI class that type NM cable is not approved for damp locations and appears that you can not therefore use it to feed any outdoor luminares or receptacles. So if

If true never enforced for luminares or receptacles mounted to building

 

[tortuga]

So if somebody has a 42 circuit outdoor panel one way to terminate NM cables would be to drill large holes ,install several 2" diameter nipples to an 6 by 6"' wide by 2' long trough that's mounted indoors then only bring out the white & black conductors and terminate the grounds to a mega ground bar inside of trough. Between that ,high price of copper wire and expensive AFCI breakers homeowners might need to take out a home equity loan to.pay for this.

Yeah between 334.10(A), 300.9 and 312.5(C) it is certainty a challenge to have a large 42 circuit outdoor panel. (thats not a flush mount)
For residential I think a 200A meter/main then a short run to a indoor panel is the way to go.