NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
- Thread starter herndon
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russ
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- Burbank IL
Re: NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
If your asking if a fire station is required to have emergency back up power, the answer is yes.
It could be as simple as battery backed up exit signs and battery emergency light units.
All though not always required by the NEC. I would think that most fire houses have some sort of back up power like a generator and a automatic transfer switch. It would be a little tough to get the trucks out of the doors if the door operators were without power. Communication power is also essential.
Russ
[ May 31, 2003, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: russ ]
If your asking if a fire station is required to have emergency back up power, the answer is yes.
It could be as simple as battery backed up exit signs and battery emergency light units.
All though not always required by the NEC. I would think that most fire houses have some sort of back up power like a generator and a automatic transfer switch. It would be a little tough to get the trucks out of the doors if the door operators were without power. Communication power is also essential.
Russ
[ May 31, 2003, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: russ ]
Re: NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
Herndon, I think you are crossing article 517 and 700. The term "Life Safety as in Life Safety Branch only pertains to article 517.
There is specific seperation of the Life Safety Branch and Critical Branches in this article, see 517.30 in it's entirety, (note diagram 517.30 2, not that it has anything to do with you situation) 517.32 and 517.33.
Roger
Herndon, I think you are crossing article 517 and 700. The term "Life Safety as in Life Safety Branch only pertains to article 517.
There is specific seperation of the Life Safety Branch and Critical Branches in this article, see 517.30 in it's entirety, (note diagram 517.30 2, not that it has anything to do with you situation) 517.32 and 517.33.
Roger
Re: NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
Were it is coming from, if you read 700.1 Scope "....Emergency systems are those systems LEGALLY required and ....." Now 700.6d Transfer Equipment Use "Transfer equipment shall supply ONLY emergency loads."
This last part is were they say you can not feed a common emergency panel (feeding outlets, lights and exits) thru the same ATS, because outlets,etc are not legally required.
Thanks again...
Were it is coming from, if you read 700.1 Scope "....Emergency systems are those systems LEGALLY required and ....." Now 700.6d Transfer Equipment Use "Transfer equipment shall supply ONLY emergency loads."
This last part is were they say you can not feed a common emergency panel (feeding outlets, lights and exits) thru the same ATS, because outlets,etc are not legally required.
Thanks again...
Re: NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
Herndon, 700.1 says "these systems are intended to automatically supply illumination, power, or both".
It also says "required and classed as emergency by municipal, state, federal, or other codes, or by any governmental agency having jurisdiction", this would probably end your fight if this was the case.
However, why not plug a mobile phone charger into the chiefs receptacle and call communications.
Sorry, I know that wasn't funny. If this and other receptacles aren't needed, why transfer them in an event, why not just supply the emergency loads as defined by the AHJ?
Roger
[ June 02, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Herndon, 700.1 says "these systems are intended to automatically supply illumination, power, or both".
It also says "required and classed as emergency by municipal, state, federal, or other codes, or by any governmental agency having jurisdiction", this would probably end your fight if this was the case.
However, why not plug a mobile phone charger into the chiefs receptacle and call communications.
Sorry, I know that wasn't funny. If this and other receptacles aren't needed, why transfer them in an event, why not just supply the emergency loads as defined by the AHJ?
Roger
[ June 02, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Re: NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
Hey Roger,
I wish it was that easy... It's more than one outlet. It's various outlets, motorized overhead door, etc....
The key is the word "Required". The wants of the Chief are not legally required things.
PS It was funny and if I have only one outlet, I would have tried it....
Thanks
Hey Roger,
I wish it was that easy... It's more than one outlet. It's various outlets, motorized overhead door, etc....
The key is the word "Required". The wants of the Chief are not legally required things.
PS It was funny and if I have only one outlet, I would have tried it....
Thanks
Re: NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
Herndon, one more idea, have you looked into NFPA 110? I don't have mine here at work, but you may find something to help you in there.
Also go back to the single transfer switch in 517.30 serving critical, life safety, and equipment branches. If this is allowed in hospitals with generators less than 150 kva I certainly wouldn't see a reason it wouldn't be allowed in small Emergency Systems. I know this isn't a usable argument, but an opinion I would bring up anyways.
Good luck
Roger
Herndon, one more idea, have you looked into NFPA 110? I don't have mine here at work, but you may find something to help you in there.
Also go back to the single transfer switch in 517.30 serving critical, life safety, and equipment branches. If this is allowed in hospitals with generators less than 150 kva I certainly wouldn't see a reason it wouldn't be allowed in small Emergency Systems. I know this isn't a usable argument, but an opinion I would bring up anyways.
Good luck
Roger
Re: NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
If it is a small fire station, you could use battery packs in the exit lights and for egress lights. Then the transfer equipment in 700.6 (D) is internal to the fixtures, and you can run whatever you want off the generator.
Steve
If it is a small fire station, you could use battery packs in the exit lights and for egress lights. Then the transfer equipment in 700.6 (D) is internal to the fixtures, and you can run whatever you want off the generator.
Steve
Re: NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
I agree with Bob. Look at 700.1. the electrical safety of the instalation, operation, and maitanenace of emergency sysytems consisting of........ and then 700.5 the system shall have adequate capicity for all loads.......
If the Gen set is big enough then put it all on emergency back up power. I see nothing in the code that pertains to a fire house. The fire cheif may be the AHJ and if he wants his pencil sharpener of e-power then it is legally required. I agree with some of the previous posters that first thought should be to communication equipment and the needed power for those firefighters to do their job. If there is enough capacity then add the nicey nice stuff.
Just out of curiosity how big is the service and how big is the genset.
I agree with Bob. Look at 700.1. the electrical safety of the instalation, operation, and maitanenace of emergency sysytems consisting of........ and then 700.5 the system shall have adequate capicity for all loads.......
If the Gen set is big enough then put it all on emergency back up power. I see nothing in the code that pertains to a fire house. The fire cheif may be the AHJ and if he wants his pencil sharpener of e-power then it is legally required. I agree with some of the previous posters that first thought should be to communication equipment and the needed power for those firefighters to do their job. If there is enough capacity then add the nicey nice stuff.
Just out of curiosity how big is the service and how big is the genset.
Re: NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
Sneza
Herndon made the following statement:
"Per NEC 700.6 "MY Understanding" You can't run life saftey equipment and the fire chief's office receptacle thru the same ATS... If this correct or do you know a loop hole?"
The point I am makeing is that there is no need for 2 ATS in this installation.
Yes the exit lts and egress lts are essential loads as is other loads in the station.
What is your point regarding the exit and egress lts?
Sneza
Herndon made the following statement:
"Per NEC 700.6 "MY Understanding" You can't run life saftey equipment and the fire chief's office receptacle thru the same ATS... If this correct or do you know a loop hole?"
The point I am makeing is that there is no need for 2 ATS in this installation.
Yes the exit lts and egress lts are essential loads as is other loads in the station.
What is your point regarding the exit and egress lts?
Re: NEC Art 700.1 & 700.6
I still disagree with Bob and caj. Per 700.6(D), transfer equipment shall supply only emergency loads. The handbook clarifies this and says the generator may serve non-emergency loads, but mulitple transfer switches are required. The transfer switch that serves emergency loads can not serve non-emergency loads.
Someone mentioned 700.5(A), but look at (B). That also requires a second transfer switch (how else would you do selective load shedding?).
Again, I think you should use commercial fixtures with battery backup for the required exit and egress lights (if that is cheaper than another transfer switch). Then the required multiple transfer switches are in the fixtures. Doors, radios, and everything else can go on the generator.
Someone also mentioned 517 as allowing one transfer switch for under 150KVA. But 517 also places limits on what can be put on this one transfer switch. Basically, only necessary items. Not just anything.
Steve
I still disagree with Bob and caj. Per 700.6(D), transfer equipment shall supply only emergency loads. The handbook clarifies this and says the generator may serve non-emergency loads, but mulitple transfer switches are required. The transfer switch that serves emergency loads can not serve non-emergency loads.
Someone mentioned 700.5(A), but look at (B). That also requires a second transfer switch (how else would you do selective load shedding?).
Again, I think you should use commercial fixtures with battery backup for the required exit and egress lights (if that is cheaper than another transfer switch). Then the required multiple transfer switches are in the fixtures. Doors, radios, and everything else can go on the generator.
Someone also mentioned 517 as allowing one transfer switch for under 150KVA. But 517 also places limits on what can be put on this one transfer switch. Basically, only necessary items. Not just anything.
Steve
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