NEC code on installing used breaker panels

[Todd W.]

Question regarding the code for installing used breaker panels. I sourced used main breaker panels for a fraction of new cost. My electrician installed these panels and says they're in very good shape. However our inspector has demanded we use new panels since he cannot verify the integrity of these units. The panels have not been repaired for any reason and don't believe they should be considered refurbished.
Is this legal under NEC code to demand new panels be installed?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The inspector has no right imo to demand a new panel unless there is some obvious issues with the old one.

 

[GoldDigger]

On the other hand, some jurisdictions have (under amended NEC or other safety codes) banned the new installation of used panel board or switchboard components.
In such cases the inspector may be legitimately enforcing other codes besides the unamended NEC.
This does not appear to apply to the OP, though.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

 

[Todd W.]

The city has no other ordinance other than lighting ordinance. Follow only NEC code.

 

[sameguy]

Fill depending on how old.
Lucky for most of us we can just replace all the old wires and panels every 10 years!

 

[Fred B]

A used panel is different than a refurbished panel. Most technicians or electricians have no means to make a refurbished panel and have it "listed" as would be required under the code. Simply changing a replaceable breaker, main or otherwise, is not refurbished under the code, otherwise we'd have to be buying new panels anytime you want to change a faulty breaker. There may be as suggested by @GoldDigger local requirements that may have other criteria. I however would not be installing used breakers, I have no way to validate their operational condition, and that might be what the inspector is objecting to. I've seen too many mains that didn't trip when it obviously should have, alot of them FP. I'm not sure if the price of a used panel and installing a new main breaker would maintain it's price incentive or not.

 

[Todd W.]

Had a meeting with the city today. Electrical inspector has an issue with used panels. All breakers including the main are new. He cited 110.21A about refurbished equipment as his reason for the issue. I do not feel this code applies and my argument is that they're used, not refurbished. He's forcing the issue and my question is whether or not his "opinion " of the code holds water.
Btw, he's shown to have an unhealthy interest in my project as the project I'm building is in competition with a wealthy local businessman who vowed I'd never open my business.

 

[ramsy]

Most AHJ inspectors are trained to check equipment labels to confirm use is listed for the purpose, and may demand NRTL field evals if original labels are missing, or equipment is modified.

If equipment did not originate with existing building, AHJ may reference UL for a recondition cert. described in 2017 NFPA-70 110.21(A)(2):

UL Definition for “Reconditioned”

Reconditioned electrical equipment, a 2020 NEC® Guide

The NEC has recently weighed in on the use of rebuilt and reconditioned equipment.

www.ul.com

Reconditioned equipment is electromechanical systems, equipment, apparatus, or components that are restored to operating conditions. This process differs from normal servicing of equipment that remains within a facility, or replacement of listed equipment on a one-to-one basis.

Of course the rules never apply to the industrial exception.

Exception: In industrial occupancies, where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the equipment, the markings indicated in 110.21(A)(2) shall not be required.

 

[Todd W.]

Ramsy, I actually read that article earlier. That is a UL article citing code 110.21a , however the actual code does not state anything about it being removed from another location. Nor does it state anything about "used" equipment. Refurbished indicates a need for repairs , where as used is perfectly functional just not new. Labels still intact.

Purchasing a used car is just that, still functioning and my be mechanically sound. Not new, not refurbished, just used. NEC doesn't speak on used.

 

[ramsy]

Then you read how UL clarifies what is not reconditioned:
"This process differs from normal servicing of equipment that remains within a facility, or replacement of listed equipment on a one-to-one basis."

If you can't use the industrial exception, what code cycle is Michigan using?

You may need to bring your lawyer next trip to the city. I believe the Recondition code was ambiguous without a definition, until defined in the 2017 NEC 210.21(A)(2)

 

[tom baker]

Also take a look at 110.12 (B), this has been in the code for many years.

 

[jusme123]

To the OP, where exactly are you using this used panel, new construction, garage, shed, sub panel , etc.? BTW, if this flies, it’s no wonder the code book will be a foot thick by the end of the century

 

[Todd W.]

It's new construction also commercial building. No public access, not that it matters

 

[ptonsparky]

A used panel that meets all of 110.12(B), is just that. Used. Nothing wrong with it that a couple snap in blanks won’t cure.

 

[Todd W.]

A used panel that meets all of 110.12(B), is just that. Used. Nothing wrong with it that a couple snap in blanks won’t cure.

My thoughts exactly, and blanks were installed before inspection. He keeps asking me who certified these panels? I keep telling him the UL label is on the unit. He will not sign off without replacing with new. Does him citing 110.21a hold water?

 

[electrofelon]

It sounds like 110.21 does not apply. You do not have reconditioned equipment.

out of curiosity, what kind of equipment are we talkin about, are these smaller load centers or larger panelboards? except for a few specific circumstances, I can't imagine installing used panelboards, but to each their own.

 

[Todd W.]

The panels are 200 amp 3 phase 42 space GE. 3 of them. 2 downstairs and 1 in a projection room.

 

[electrofelon]

Try showing the inspector this article
By an engineer with Eaton:

National Electrical Code | Reconditioned equipment | NEC safety devices

The NEC looks to pass new requirements governing reconditioned electrical safety devices. But, what makes a device “reconditioned”? Get Eaton’s take.

www.eaton.com

"My colleague, Jim Dollard, IBEW Local 98 in Philadelphia, said it best: “It’s a solid definition, it is comprehensive. The first sentence clarifies that reconditioned means “restored to operating conditions.” That means the equipment was not useable. This also clarifies that “used equipment” that is in operating condition is not considered to be “reconditioned equipment.”

 

[ptonsparky]

I have a used, in that it was installed, panel board. I discovered after words that I had ordered the wrong sized breakers. It was cheaper by a long shot to reorder with the proper breakers, remove old and instal new. Should this be thrown out solely because it was ‘used’. I think not.

On that note, it is for sale. Complete with can.

 

[K8MHZ]

Having lived and worked in Michigan for years, and been through a few code upgrade classes, if I were in your situation, I would call the state. LARA, 517-335-9700

That is what I was taught to do if I thought an inspector was not enforcing the state rules correctly. I have talked to them in the past with questions, not complaints, and they know what they are doing. Very easy to work with.