NEC code on installing used breaker panels

[K8MHZ]

FWIW, Michigan has not adopted the NEC as law. We have our own code that references the NEC. Like, for instance, no AFCI in residences. Some inspectors can't quite understand that.

 

[gadfly56]

FWIW, Michigan has not adopted the NEC as law. We have our own code that references the NEC. Like, for instance, no AFCI in residences. Some inspectors can't quite understand that.

In most jurisdictions they "adopt with amendments". What is MI doing differently?

 

[oldsparky52]

Sounds like you need to either capitulate or get ready to go to war.

 

[Todd W.]

This is not the only issue with this inspector. He also is demanding engineered plans citing code 80.21. However we are not over 400 amps, not over 3500 sq ft nor are we a place of assembly. All this 6 weeks after the permit was issued and 90% of the work completed.

 

[jap]

Is your project engineered, or, is this a DIY install?

JAP>

 

[jap]

Sounds to me like the cart got before the horse.

If an inspector is involved, I would have thought they would have required an engineered set of plans prior to the start of the project.

With that being said, I've never witnessed a set of engineered drawings where the spec's indicated anything other than "New" Equipment.

If I were an electrical inspector, I wouldn't hang my hat on used equipment being installed either.

To me, that would only open the door even wider for future inspections of used equipment being installed as to what was or was not acceptable.

JMHO.

JAP>

 

[zbang]

Is your project engineered, or, is this a DIY install?

Could be neither. Most smaller jobs, and I'd call under 400 amps probably "small", aren't touched by a professional engineer. If Todd is working for hire, it's not DYI,

I'd also be back to the people who issued the permit w/o "engineered plans", either they made a mistake (not requiring them) or they're correct that they're not needed (and the inspector is wrong).

 

[K8MHZ]

In most jurisdictions they "adopt with amendments". What is MI doing differently?

We have our own code, which is a part of the state building code. Part 8. Electrical Code. In addition to which parts of the NEC are adopted by reference, it also spells out how the code is enforced.

This is the formal name of our code. PART 8. ELECTRICAL CODE R 408.30801 National electrical code; adoptions by reference; inspection; purchase.

R 408.30807 Title. Rule 807. Title. These rules shall be known as the Michigan electrical code, hereinafter referred to as "the code."

Here is the entire Michigan electrical code:

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/lara/Electrical_Code_Part_8_540078_7.pdf

 

[ramsy]

National Electrical Code | Reconditioned equipment | NEC safety devices

The NEC looks to pass new requirements governing reconditioned electrical safety devices. But, what makes a device “reconditioned”? Get Eaton’s take.

www.eaton.com

"My colleague, Jim Dollard, IBEW Local 98 in Philadelphia, said it best: “It’s a solid definition, it is comprehensive. The first sentence clarifies that reconditioned means “restored to operating conditions.” That means the equipment was not useable. This also clarifies that “used equipment” that is in operating condition is not considered to be “reconditioned equipment.”

The "used within a facility" part of your quote was cut short. Your quote continues:

The second sentence is extremely important. This text provides clarification with respect to "normal servicing of equipment that remains within a facility" is not reconditioned. Keep in mind that a facility is a single building, a campus or a network of cell towers for example.

 

[Todd W.]

Wasn't engineered because didn't meet the requirements. Not a DIY either. Electrician is master with 40 years experience. Never seen this inspector acts like this.

 

[ramsy]

Since AHJ's are aware that suppliers re-sell anything, including equipment from flooded & burned buildings, Electrofelon's excellent reference to Eaton's article clarifies the history of used equipment must be known within the same Facility.

Facility

"That remains within a facility." Knowing the history of equipment is the next step of this definition. It's easier to understand the history of equipment that was purchased for and remained in a single facility during its entire life. This history is important for safety..

What this Eaton engineer does not address in his article, is if inspectors are required to have experience with used equipment, or competence establishing NEC 110.12(B) integrity of acceptable equipment, used within a facility under a known history of "normal service".

I don't believe inspectors bear the burden to prove 110.12(B) integrity within the same facility, much less from an unknown history, and can punt to 3rd parties rather than assume such liability themselves.

 

[Todd W.]

Sounds to me like the cart got before the horse.

If an inspector is involved, I would have thought they would have required an engineered set of plans prior to the start of the project.

With that being said, I've never witnessed a set of engineered drawings where the spec's indicated anything other than "New" Equipment.

If I were an electrical inspector, I wouldn't hang my hat on used equipment being installed either.

To me, that would only open the door even wider for future inspections of used equipment being installed as to what was or was not acceptable.

JMHO.

JAP>

Plans were not asked for at time of building permit nor electric permit. 6 weeks later they want plans after work was almost complete. No cart before the horse, they're keep moving the goal line back
Used panels would have been used if the requirement for engineering was meet.

 

[ramsy]

Much of my electrical service business is "normal service" and "listed" replacement on a "one-to-one basis", which rivals the panel flipper's new construction bid.

Bus stabs can look fine after years of normal use reduced them to balsa wood, but once de-energized, break off in my gloves. Equipment wiring space can also get ridiculous with existing service equipment converted to sub-panels, after Neutral bus must be added. Most unserviceable equipment with permanent bus damage are those spray painted, before unqualified persons forced on the overfused & unlisted breakers.

Beyond examination of listings & labels, most inspectors are not NRTL experienced examiners, which AHJ's task to safely investigate used equipment, much less do inspectors open covers, flip switches, de-energize equipment, remove breakers, and poke around the equipment buss.

 

[ramsy]

Btw, he's shown to have an unhealthy interest in my project as the project I'm building is in competition with a wealthy local businessman who vowed I'd never open my business.

Common to all States, mechanic lien law enforces payment for licensed contracts and change orders for AHJ corrections, and other unforeseen complications that exceed original bids.

The quickest way for rivals to shut down a business is to have occupancy revoked for health, safety, or trade-licensing violations --not authorized to contract--, or for contractors to refuse compliance with AHJ corrections.

 

[jap]

Wasn't engineered because didn't meet the requirements. Not a DIY either. Electrician is master with 40 years experience. Never seen this inspector acts like this.

If it wasn't engineered because it didn't meet the requirements, and, if plans weren't requested prior to granting a permit, I'd say the odds are all in your favor.

DIY stands for "Do it yourself".

Some misuse the term to refer to those who don't know what they're doing when it's actually a term used for those who do things themselves instead of having to pay others.

JAP>

 

[Todd W.]

Well I did contact the state and they put it back on the local jurisdiction. Board of Appeals made up of small town fella's will likely get me nowhere. Decisions decisions, once I fight them they're likely to make everything about this project unbearable.

 

[ceb58]

It sounds like 110.21 does not apply. You do not have reconditioned equipment.

out of curiosity, what kind of equipment are we talkin about, are these smaller load centers or larger panelboards? except for a few specific circumstances, I can't imagine installing used panelboards, but to each their own.

I agree. My worry would be the liability issue if something went south.