NEC Code say about splice

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Ainsley Whyte

Senior Member
Location
Jamaica
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Senior Electrical Engineer
What does the Nec code say about splice. A cable of about 1500ft. was spliced using two different size cables 3/0 joining a 1/0 on the same run. The cable was damage Severed during some excavation exercise and a quick fix was to splice at two different points. The cable supply a 50hp pump which uses about 63 Amps. I am interested to know what the code said about this?
 

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Seems to me conductors are increased in size for voltage drop reasons. Other than for that reason these conducotrs likely only need to be 4 AWG max, so unless your section of smaller conductor introduces too much voltage drop in the run, nothing wrong with that.

I do question from the photo if there is any EGC though.
 

Ainsley Whyte

Senior Member
Location
Jamaica
Occupation
Senior Electrical Engineer
Seems to me conductors are increased in size for voltage drop reasons. Other than for that reason these conductors likely only need to be 4 AWG max, so unless your section of smaller conductor introduces too much voltage drop in the run, nothing wrong with that.

I do question from the photo if there is any EGC though.
No None EGC good observation. Just for clarity one 3/0 cable is join to another 1/0 cable for one splice then the other splice the 1/0 is join to a 3/0. I think it was cheaper to join with a smaller size cable however is this best practice?

Really and truly what in effect you have is a feeder that starts out as 3/0 reduces to 1/0 and continue back to 3/0. Even though there are no amperage concern what about other concern heating etc. however whatever the code say I would be guided
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
I assume your voltage is 480 or so. A distance of 1500 feet would have about a 3.3% voltage drop which is far within the parameters for the motor. That was calculated with 1/0 going the entire distance so with 3/0 going most of the way it definitely isn't an issue
 

Ainsley Whyte

Senior Member
Location
Jamaica
Occupation
Senior Electrical Engineer
I assume your voltage is 480 or so. A distance of 1500 feet would have about a 3.3% voltage drop which is far within the parameters for the motor. That was calculated with 1/0 going the entire distance so with 3/0 going most of the way it definitely isn't an issue
Thanks Dennis Alwon, is there any limit of splice allowed on a complete run of feeder per feet ?
 

Ainsley Whyte

Senior Member
Location
Jamaica
Occupation
Senior Electrical Engineer
No. However the more spices the more probability of Trouble
You are so correct this feeder run had to be replaced with a permanent straight run cable ( no splices).We had frequent faults on the one with the multiple splices which damage the 50 HP pump. The circuit breaker upstream of the pump is from a sub station which trips when the fault happens. This circuit breaker and that breaker is 400A........SETTINGS
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
You are so correct this feeder run had to be replaced with a permanent straight run cable ( no splices).We had frequent faults on the one with the multiple splices which damage the 50 HP pump. The circuit breaker upstream of the pump is from a sub station which trips when the fault happens. This circuit breaker and that breaker is 400A........SETTINGS
Why would a splice damage the pump?
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Some times the cable leaking to ground causing the breaker to trip. Then troubleshooting would have to be done to find out where the fault is especially when rain fall
If that is the case it is likely not a splice problem but a workmanship problem. In any case, it is unlikely that any "leakage" to ground could cause the CB to open.
 

Ainsley Whyte

Senior Member
Location
Jamaica
Occupation
Senior Electrical Engineer
If that is the case it is likely not a splice problem but a workmanship problem. In any case, it is unlikely that any "leakage" to ground could cause the CB to open.
Insulation resistance test between cable and ground giving low readings usually the case
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Insulation resistance test between cable and ground giving low readings usually the case
How low? It would have to be really low to cause the CB to open on a 50 HP motor. It would probably have at least an 80 Amp rated CB. Even if the insulation resistance to ground was 1000 ohms that would only be about a quarter of an amp (277 Volts/1000 Ohm). How is an extra 1/4 of an Amp going to cause the CB to open?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
No None EGC good observation. Just for clarity one 3/0 cable is join to another 1/0 cable for one splice then the other splice the 1/0 is join to a 3/0. I think it was cheaper to join with a smaller size cable however is this best practice?

Really and truly what in effect you have is a feeder that starts out as 3/0 reduces to 1/0 and continue back to 3/0. Even though there are no amperage concern what about other concern heating etc. however whatever the code say I would be guided
As long as whatever is installed doesn't yield unacceptable voltage drop you could splice in whatever the minimum conductor size is needed, which is probably 4 AWG in your situation. A short length is not going to be a problem. In fact sometimes you need to use the smaller conductor at each end of the circuit because whatever you used to lessen voltage drop is too large to fit devices used at each end of the circuit.
 

Ainsley Whyte

Senior Member
Location
Jamaica
Occupation
Senior Electrical Engineer
As long as whatever is installed doesn't yield unacceptable voltage drop you could splice in whatever the minimum conductor size is needed, which is probably 4 AWG in your situation. A short length is not going to be a problem. In fact sometimes you need to use the smaller conductor at each end of the circuit because whatever you used to lessen voltage drop is too large to fit devices used at each end of the circuit.
can you suggest a simulator to simulate the conditions
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
can you suggest a simulator to simulate the conditions
Draw out what you have, calculate voltage drop across each segment of the circuit. The motor draws whatever the load demands and is effected by too high or too low of supply voltage. We generally figure adjustments for voltage drop by assuming nameplate voltage and full load rated current.

If the smaller length of conductor doesn't create any significant voltage drop there is nothing wrong with using it, presuming it has enough ampacity to keep from overheating the insulation - which is what ampacity tables and adjustments are about - protecting insulation. They have nothing to do with voltage drop.
 

Ainsley Whyte

Senior Member
Location
Jamaica
Occupation
Senior Electrical Engineer
How low? It would have to be really low to cause the CB to open on a 50 HP motor. It would probably have at least an 80 Amp rated CB. Even if the insulation resistance to ground was 1000 ohms that would only be about a quarter of an amp (277 Volts/1000 Ohm). How is an extra 1/4 of an Amp going to cause the CB to open?
unless there was a shorts
 

paulengr

Senior Member
A properly done splice must be done to where the final result equals or exceeds the original cable. Depending on local conditions you might be able to skimp but it can and will come back to bite you.

If you test joints which is done more in breaker testing and sometimes bus bars, there are various specs but the big one is less than 1 milliohm resistance. It is usually in the microohms. We also usually compare phases because the book number is a pretty “loose” spec. Typically I get around 50-250 microohms depending on joint construction. You cannot totally eliminate SOME drop even if you TIG or Cadweld the copper together. It has to do with constriction resistance and with mechanical and crimp lugs, alpha spots. Constriction resistance plays a role not only when you change cable diameters but at ANY joint. In terms of proper splices I would go crimped barrel connectors or if you are really paranoid, Cadweld or TiG weld it. I Cadweld grounds but not phase conductors...too much work insulating big chunky welds, and you have to cut back and reinsulate anything heat damaged. There is a reason automotive went from solder joints to crimped years ago. SAE sponsored a lot of PhDs doing joint testing both mechanical and electrical . The barrel is marked with the MINIMUM number of crimps. Some manufacturers have connectors that allow multiple cable sizes. If you don’t have these you need to use bolted crimp lugs instead. This is a permanent connection. Don’t take chances with mechanical fittings underground. Those stupidly expensive insulated terminals are rated for underground but you are risking having to dig it back up. Temporary only. When Burndy, Polaris, etc., stop having failures we can revisit that. Those are temporary.

My splices have been literally underwater as in shore power for a dredge, for months at a time. Not just moist but full on submerged and subjected to mechanical force on occasion. The cable isn’t even really rated for that (water trees) but it does work especially at 600 V duty. No failures unless they are literally mechanically pulled apart and the failure happens in the cable next to the splice. It’s all workmanship. Every splice I ever repaired had workmanship issues. Like wire nuts buried in giant tape balls or one half attempt at a crimp using lineman pliers on a barrel marked for 3.

Second is insulation. Follow 3M guidelines. 2 layers of something to act as a separator...they recommend varnished cambric. Add putty if needed to smooth out odd shapes. Two layers of rubber splicing tape 130C. Two layers of vinyl stretched to half width. The tension causes it to pull against itself keeping everything packed in tight. Tape is cheap. If you want more, use more. I’ve also used adhesive lined shrink wrap over barrel connectors instead. Works good.

In multi conductor cable make sure to stagger the splices.

Finally you need to restore the outer jacket. Unless you put it in a rated vault use adhesive lined heavy wall shrink tubing. Again...I have done years of “field” testing in a marine environment. One rule to remember. ALWAYS put the jacket on loose BEFORE you connect anything. If you think it might not fit (cut and dry test first), slide a second one on. If it doesn’t work you have to cut everything up and start over. At that point the only other thing you can do is swear a lot when you realize just how far ahead of yourself you got.

There is more to do if it’s shielded but you don’t have to deal with that.

In terms of testing, micro ohm testing can only be done before insulating. A Megger tells you if you have some kind of defect somewhere. It picks up actual weak insulation in SOME instances as well as contamination and moisture. It tells you the condition today. It has almost zero predictive power even if you temperature correct or use PI. The one and only time to test workmanship is when the splices are being made by watching what is done. It’s not hard. Anyone can be trained. But there are a lot of steps, far too many short cuts, and it is 100% dependent on the skill and knowledge of the person doing it. Crimped barrels and lugs and die or dieless crimpers help with one part of it by taking the skill aspect away. Heat shrink tubing does too. But at the end of the day once it’s buried it’s a mystery.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
A properly done splice must be done to where the final result equals or exceeds the original cable. Depending on local conditions you might be able to skimp but it can and will come back to bite you.

If you test joints which is done more in breaker testing and sometimes bus bars, there are various specs but the big one is less than 1 milliohm resistance. It is usually in the microohms. We also usually compare phases because the book number is a pretty “loose” spec. Typically I get around 50-250 microohms depending on joint construction. You cannot totally eliminate SOME drop even if you TIG or Cadweld the copper together. It has to do with constriction resistance and with mechanical and crimp lugs, alpha spots. Constriction resistance plays a role not only when you change cable diameters but at ANY joint. In terms of proper splices I would go crimped barrel connectors or if you are really paranoid, Cadweld or TiG weld it. I Cadweld grounds but not phase conductors...too much work insulating big chunky welds, and you have to cut back and reinsulate anything heat damaged. There is a reason automotive went from solder joints to crimped years ago. SAE sponsored a lot of PhDs doing joint testing both mechanical and electrical . The barrel is marked with the MINIMUM number of crimps. Some manufacturers have connectors that allow multiple cable sizes. If you don’t have these you need to use bolted crimp lugs instead. This is a permanent connection. Don’t take chances with mechanical fittings underground. Those stupidly expensive insulated terminals are rated for underground but you are risking having to dig it back up. Temporary only. When Burndy, Polaris, etc., stop having failures we can revisit that. Those are temporary.

My splices have been literally underwater as in shore power for a dredge, for months at a time. Not just moist but full on submerged and subjected to mechanical force on occasion. The cable isn’t even really rated for that (water trees) but it does work especially at 600 V duty. No failures unless they are literally mechanically pulled apart and the failure happens in the cable next to the splice. It’s all workmanship. Every splice I ever repaired had workmanship issues. Like wire nuts buried in giant tape balls or one half attempt at a crimp using lineman pliers on a barrel marked for 3.

Second is insulation. Follow 3M guidelines. 2 layers of something to act as a separator...they recommend varnished cambric. Add putty if needed to smooth out odd shapes. Two layers of rubber splicing tape 130C. Two layers of vinyl stretched to half width. The tension causes it to pull against itself keeping everything packed in tight. Tape is cheap. If you want more, use more. I’ve also used adhesive lined shrink wrap over barrel connectors instead. Works good.

In multi conductor cable make sure to stagger the splices.

Finally you need to restore the outer jacket. Unless you put it in a rated vault use adhesive lined heavy wall shrink tubing. Again...I have done years of “field” testing in a marine environment. One rule to remember. ALWAYS put the jacket on loose BEFORE you connect anything. If you think it might not fit (cut and dry test first), slide a second one on. If it doesn’t work you have to cut everything up and start over. At that point the only other thing you can do is swear a lot when you realize just how far ahead of yourself you got.

There is more to do if it’s shielded but you don’t have to deal with that.

In terms of testing, micro ohm testing can only be done before insulating. A Megger tells you if you have some kind of defect somewhere. It picks up actual weak insulation in SOME instances as well as contamination and moisture. It tells you the condition today. It has almost zero predictive power even if you temperature correct or use PI. The one and only time to test workmanship is when the splices are being made by watching what is done. It’s not hard. Anyone can be trained. But there are a lot of steps, far too many short cuts, and it is 100% dependent on the skill and knowledge of the person doing it. Crimped barrels and lugs and die or dieless crimpers help with one part of it by taking the skill aspect away. Heat shrink tubing does too. But at the end of the day once it’s buried it’s a mystery.
You mostly talking about continuity of the splice and insulation of the splicing method. OP is asking if it is OK to have lesser ampacity conductor spliced into a run of higher ampacity conductor. Like I told him, if the original run or the bulk of the main run is higher ampacity than the load needs and is selected for voltage drop reasons, it might be feasible as long as it doesn't contribute too much to overall voltage drop in the circuit.

In his case I believe the motor in question needs at least 4 AWG as minimum size conductor ampacity wise so his smaller conductor could never be less than that size
 
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