NEC - Is it Minimum Requirements or Gospel?

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By law, once we adopt the NEC we cannot ask for any more than that and if the NEC is the minimum then that's what we get.

I know, I know, you can write ammendments making it more restrictive, but not less restrictive, but states like California are making it harder and making you justify it (topographically, geographically, siesmic, climatic). "Just because we don't like it" isn't going to get it by the California Building Standards Commission.
 
cowboyjwc said:
I know, you can write ammendments making it more restrictive, but not less restrictive,
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John that is true with OSHA and other Fed statues, that is not the case with the NEC, a locality can relax the NEC with amendments.

Here in MA we have about 60 or 70 amendments, most of which relax the NEC rules.

As one example MA has eliminated remarking the white in a switch leg as the NEC requires in 200.7(C)(2).

Another example is a relaxed derating table.
 
Lets Dance

Lets Dance

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First off, most electricians know the minimum and know when to exceed it.

We are skilled tradesman. Do we know when minimum is ok. Yes.

Now keep in mind we EC's have plans/prints/spec's and bullitens/awa,s/addendums to bide by.

Well OP, were do you think all that comes from?

In my zip we dont have the joy of the minimum. Often we exceed with obvious boredom.

Electricians know when a minimum is right or wrong.

Example: Two 500ft parralell runs of max filled conduit underground of "PVC".

Things tend to get a little hot.

But the EE and PM force us to do it.

So what is your point?
 
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One of my GC that i contracted with many years ago had a very nice 3 br 2 bath,2 car garage model that at the time was selling for $100,000 (15 years ago).To boost sales he put up 2 models on a very busy front street,the ones that were for sale were behind it in a nice plan.He gave them options.Pool,hot tub,increase size,upgrade fixtures,decora,wall paper,chair rails,etc..I asked him one day what will happen to the models when the development is full because nobody would want them where they sit."Jim after i sell 20 or 30 of these i can doze it down".What would it cost if they wanted the model with all upgrades ? $200,000.

It was all just a fancy trick to sell the floor plan.Very few could afford all of them.But in there minds this is what they can make theres look like.I wired the 2 models and when fixture time came he used $50 lights where the normal was $5

Point here is that giving them options dont mean they can afford them.Sure they wanted them but $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ are the problem.Same builder told me he wanted the cheapest price i can do them for.His words where that in the end no matter who wires it everything will work and pass code.So i gave him the cheapest job code allowed.

Most builders will let you add anything you want as long as you have GREEN
 
kingpb said:
Why is it that electrical Contractor's have gotten so used to doing only the bare minimum required by the NEC? I thought the NEC was to set a minimum level of installation to remain safe; not to set a minimum level of quality.
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It's about the same for consulting engineers. Clients award projects to the lowest bidder without investigation regarding past work, quality of drawings, calculations, etc. Its down to price and they want it yesterday because they spent most of the calendar time deciding to go ahead with the project. GRRRR

The NEC is concerned with safety, not performance, reliability, efficiency etc. See 90.1 (B)
 
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Jim W in Tampa said:
One of my GC that i contracted with many years ago had a very nice 3 br 2 bath,2 car garage model that at the time was selling for $100,000 (15 years ago).To boost sales he put up 2 models on a very busy front street,the ones that were for sale were behind it in a nice plan.He gave them options.Pool,hot tub,increase size,upgrade fixtures,decora,wall paper,chair rails,etc..I asked him one day what will happen to the models when the development is full because nobody would want them where they sit."Jim after i sell 20 or 30 of these i can doze it down".What would it cost if they wanted the model with all upgrades ? $200,000.

It was all just a fancy trick to sell the floor plan.Very few could afford all of them.But in there minds this is what they can make theres look like.I wired the 2 models and when fixture time came he used $50 lights where the normal was $5

Point here is that giving them options dont mean they can afford them.Sure they wanted them but $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ are the problem.Same builder told me he wanted the cheapest price i can do them for.His words where that in the end no matter who wires it everything will work and pass code.So i gave him the cheapest job code allowed.

Most builders will let you add anything you want as long as you have GREEN
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Jim I did a 32,000 sq. ft. in AVILLA near you a few years ago.The builder was a couple that built in Cheval and Avilla.The wife Liz was the $$$ person.Well when trim time came they brought me fixtures for the entry,den ,dining area that were priceless antiques.But the rest of the house got close outs from the big O .Her answer to my question as to why these cheap fixtures in this mansion was simple.Once they get in the front door and see what is there the rest looks just as good since they are already mesmerized.......What a sin 14 bedrooms 14 jetted tubs a pool inside the house,2 kitchens and an outdoor kitchen and cheap fixtures in the rest of the house.
 
Gmack said:
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First off, most electricians know the minimum and know when to exceed it.

We are skilled tradesman. Do we know when minimum is ok. Yes.

Now keep in mind we EC's have plans/prints/spec's and bullitens/awa,s/addendums to bide by.

Well OP, were do you think all that comes from?

In my zip we dont have the joy of the minimum. Often we exceed with obvious boredom.

Electricians know when a minimum is right or wrong.

Example: Two 500ft parralell runs of max filled conduit underground of "PVC".

Things tend to get a little hot.

But the EE and PM force us to do it.

So what is your point?
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Your going to tell me that it's OK to trip a breaker because the ceiling fan is running on high, the light on the fan is on because it is dusk, and the vacuum is turned on? It meets Code, but its a non-quality installation. That's the point!

As far as your example of the 500ft of parallel runs, with no details I cannot say if it was good or not, but since it clearly has nothing to do with this discussion, what is Your point?

I guess some try to take pride in what they do and excel, keep happy clients, all the while making a decent profit; and others just like to put lipstick on the pig, and call it purdy!
 
kingpb said:
I guess some try to take pride in what they do and excel, keep happy clients, all the while making a decent profit; and others just like to put lipstick on the pig, and call it purdy!
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And your here to tell us what is and is not acceptable?

I would have thought that was a choice better made by....get this.....the client.

The company I work for is not a charity, we provide what we are contracted for.

If the customer asks for more and is willing to pay for it we will be happy to provide it.:)

The only way to ensure the vacuum does not trip the circuit is to provide single receptacles each on a dedicated circuit....few customers are willing to pay for that.

One last thing, the members here do take pride in what they do, it is extremely rude to insinuate otherwise.

Why do you think they come here if not to learn more about their trade?
 
Bob,

Your going to tell me that you have never met an EC that doesn't care about anything bu the bottom line, and will cut as many corners as possible?

As far as insinutating anything, my apologies to all that may have been offended.

My dry and sarcastic sense of humor got the best of me again, sorry.
 
kingpb said:
Bob,

Your going to tell me that you have never met an EC that doesn't care about anything bu the bottom line, and will cut as many corners as possible?
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Absolutely not, I would not attempt to insult everyones intelligence with that sort of statement.

Buyer Beware.
 
I guess I do not understand the question.

the NEC is a minimum just like a car or truck that has four wheels a transmision and engine

now you can change that engine for a bigger or better one but you will still need an engine you can change the transmission for an automatic or whatever but you will still need a transmission change the type of wheels add a radio air conditioning fancy everything up but the minimum will still have to be there for the car or truck to be of any use.

so until someone foots the bill for all the fancyness you still need a minimum and the minimum will get the job done.
 
kingpb said:
These two things combined have somehow turned into bare bones, cheap and dirty. Thank goodness I am in the industrial market, where schedule and quality are still number one.
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I think I get the point of what you are trying to say in your post.
Just don't kid yourself by thinking the industrial market is immune from cost cutting.
In my area (metro Detroit) it is no big deal to spend most of your career at industrial facilities. We have dozens of auto plants, along with chemical plants, steel mills, oil refinerys, waste water treatment etc., so I've seen my share of past and present installation stlyes.

An example:
When the Mustang assembly was moved from Dearborn, MI to Flat Rock, MI,
the motor control centers (MCC's) that used to control the assembly in Dearborn had hundreds of rigid conduit's brought out, run everwhere, supported everwhere, wire pulled in, terminations made in the MCC, and terminations at the inputs and outputs.

The new place in Flat Rock had almost no pipe. Most of the assembly cells were built off site by the lowest bidder, disasembled into large peices, shipped in, reassembled and connected to the MCC's with premade lapkable assemblys. These have Harting connectors on each end (think reloc), the cables are run in cable tray with all the other cells cables. The MCC's are built offsite by workers with much lower pay scales.

The old way to move this line would have taken 500+ sparkys 1yr.+ while working overtime. The new way was done with 60+ workers for 1yr. and 120+ for the final 3 month push.

It was faster and cheaper. Better? There are thousands of ways industrial facilities are doing it cheaper, it's not just new work either. Maintence people are being phased out.

Power production is not immune either. I worked on a project where we built "peaker plants". These are cookie cutter power plants that run on natural gas and only turn on during peak usage. I've seen them across the country and they are identical. Very little engineering needed.
How many traditional power plants haven't been needed because of these?
Short on power? Just drop 4 or 5 of these nearly modular units in the area and your good to go.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Dave58er,

Your right, someone is always looking for the quicker, cheaper, better formula. The peaker units were cookie cutter, I did many myself. Very boring. The only thing the wizbangs overlooked was that natural gas was in short supply. Hense, the bottom fell out of that market, we are now back to doing primarily coal plants. An engineers delight!
 
The sad truth is that there are many EC`s out there that do just that cut costs where ever possible to get a better bottomline.They say as long as it passes code we did our job.Like all bedrooms in a home on one afci breaker,Hit the d/r receps and the nook receps,then hit the fridge or a S/A circuit.Some utilize the sq. footage a general 15 amp circuit can be used for but they don`t care what has been added in that same sq. footage.10 recessed cans added no problem.Huge entertainment center added no problem.10 soffit receptacles added just put them on the house gfci circuit no problem.

Now sometimes it isn`t the EC that does this.Sometimes it the help they have.Not trying to put them down but piece workers are infamous at this.They will strech the limits of the NEC to the utmost........I try and do all jobs as if I was doing it for myself.When the job is done and my name is on it I like to know I did the best possible job I could.A bad reputation follows an electrician.The inspectors know you as a poor quality worker also.Who signs the inside of there panel on a job ????? I have always done this.There are some inspectors that will open my panel on a rough see my name and just sign it off.(not saying this is correct )but I`ve seen it.

Pride in our work is quickly becoming a lost art.The man I broke into this trade in 73 with taught me one thing that has always been my first thought.An electricians signature is his panel......Make it pretty as can be.Also wire things as if you were doing it for yourself !!!!!
 
Re-read article 90 in the NEC. The NEC is only concerned with safety. Installing to the NEC minimum means the installation is safe, but may not be convenient or adequate. It is up to the EC to make sure that it is convenient and adequate, and that means different things to different people. Most first-time home buyers are only interested in price. They don't care how many outlets are on a circuit, or the quality of light fixtures. It is not until they are building their second or third house that they realize how much value and convenience an upgraded electrical system may provide. I lost many jobs because the owner's "electrician friend" undercut my price by $50. The owner did not know how much fixture allowance was figured or even how many outlets were to be installed, all they knew or cared about was that the bottom line was cheaper. After the house was finished and they were upset with the quality that they received it was too late!
 
steve66 said:
Most are not pre-designed, but designed as the contractor goes along. (Electrical, I mean)

For the one house I saw that was actually designed by an engineer, it goes like this:

1. The enginner spends a lot of time making drawings to show the code minimum. Then he guesses at other things the homeowner might want and adds those to the drawings.

2. The contractor installs whatever he wants.
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LOL,, Ain't that the truth ;)

J.S. Harvey
 
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