NEC Section 220.40

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xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
With reference to section 220.40, what is the point of applying demand factors if the feeder/service calculated load cannot be less than the sum of the loads on the branch circuits? Am I missing something here? Thanks in advance.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The demand factor is there because there is no chance that all the loads would come on at the same time. Read the rest of the sentence

220.40 General. The calculated load of a feeder or service
shall not be less than the sum of the loads on the branch
circuits supplied, as determined by Part II of this article, after
any applicable demand factors permitted by Part III or IV or
required by Part V have been applied
.
 

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
Thanks Dennis. It's the last sentence that I am hung up on. After applicable demand factors are applied?

Wouldn't demand factors applied to the service/feeder calculated load naturally be lower than the sum of the loads on the branch circuits supplied?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
But these calcs have been around forever and they appear to work. Take a dwelling, for instance, what is the probability that everything in the house would be on at once. Not going to happen....... Commercial has a better chance but that is why they have different demands

Dwelling -- first 3000 at 100 % rest at 35%

Hospital first 50,000 at 40% rest at 20%-- etc

This is just for lighting
 

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
But these calcs have been around forever and they appear to work. Take a dwelling, for instance, what is the probability that everything in the house would be on at once. Not going to happen....... Commercial has a better chance but that is why they have different demands

Dwelling -- first 3000 at 100 % rest at 35%

Hospital first 50,000 at 40% rest at 20%-- etc

This is just for lighting
Not disputing the rationale or probability of coincident load that justifies the use of demand factors. I just don't understand how you can comply with 220.40 by applying a demand factor when applying a demand factor to the feeder/service calculated load will produce a result smaller than of the loads on the branch circuits.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
So how does this comply with 220.40?
220.40 states that the calculated load for the feeder can't be less than.... after the demand factor is apply. 220.40 is saying to use the demand factor and then the feeder can't be less than that calculated load
 

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
220.40 states that the calculated load for the feeder can't be less than.... after the demand factor is apply. 220.40 is saying to use the demand factor and then the feeder can't be less than that calculated load
Im sorry but I am having a hard time comprehending this. Any way you could use an example to demonstrate what is being said?
 

bwat

EE
Location
NC
Occupation
EE
Isn't it just as simple as the code is allowing you to apply a demand factor? I've read through this thread a couple times to try to see where there might be a conflict. I'm missing it, because it looks like it's simple.

If it's just the way 220.40 is worded, because it's choppy and discontinuous, would it clarify the meaning if you didn't read it as "...after any applicable demand factors permitted", but rather "...when also applying demand factors permitted"?

220.40 doesn't say it has to be less than the sum of the loads on the branch circuits supplied. It says it has to be less than the sum of the loads on the branch circuits supplied and you can use demand factors to determine what those loads are. (paraphrasing of course)
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Resurrecting this as I still don’t have a grasp on this rule. Anyone?
220.40 is the first section of Part III, Feeder and Service Load Calculations. So it is just explaining the general strategy for those calculations: take the loads of the branch circuits supplied; apply the demand factors permitted; and the result is the load on the feeder or service.

Cheers, Wayne
 

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
Isn't it just as simple as the code is allowing you to apply a demand factor? I've read through this thread a couple times to try to see where there might be a conflict. I'm missing it, because it looks like it's simple.
I'm sure it's a simple concept, I believe I am having an issue with the way its worded.

If it's just the way 220.40 is worded, because it's choppy and discontinuous, would it clarify the meaning if you didn't read it as "...after any applicable demand factors permitted", but rather "...when also applying demand factors permitted"?
That last part does throw me off a bit. Maybe answering this would help... What is the difference between "calculated load" and "sum of the loads"?

220.40 doesn't say it has to be less than the sum of the loads on the branch circuits supplied. It says it has to be less than the sum of the loads on the branch circuits supplied and you can use demand factors to determine what those loads are. (paraphrasing of course)
It just seems bizarre to me. Why not just say:
220.40 General. The calculated load of a feeder or service may have demand factors applied as permitted by Part III or IV or required by Part V.
(this will naturally be equal to or lower than the sum of the loads)
 

JoeStillman

Senior Member
Location
West Chester, PA
That last part does throw me off a bit. Maybe answering this would help... What is the difference between "calculated load" and "sum of the loads"?
"Calculation" is a broader term than "summation". Calculations include summation (adding up the loads), multiplication (applying a demand factor) and even taking square-roots (√3). That's why that little gadget is called a calculator and not just an adder-upper. First you sum the branch circuits (add up), then you calculate the feeder load (multiply by demand)
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
I'm sure it's a simple concept, I believe I am having an issue with the way its worded.
The jargon of NFPA-70 may act as a barrier to entry, without a Rosetta Stone of practicing experience, to translate when inspectors' creative license is wrong.
It just seems bizarre to me..
I believe the goal is to create disputes settled only by expert builders, senior planners, and teams of engineers.

Since you are only 1 engineer, you are not supposed to get it by yourself.
 

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
"Calculation" is a broader term than "summation". Calculations include summation (adding up the loads), multiplication (applying a demand factor) and even taking square-roots (√3). That's why that little gadget is called a calculator and not just an adder-upper. First you sum the branch circuits (add up), then you calculate the feeder load (multiply by demand)

It sounds like what you’re saying is the term “calculated load” as used in this context is any conceivable computation or simply a general term. That would make more sense to me.
 
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xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
The jargon of NFPA-70 may act as a barrier to entry, without a Rosetta Stone of practicing experience, to translate when inspectors' creative license is wrong.

I believe the goal is to create disputes settled only by expert builders, senior planners, and teams of engineers.

Since you are only 1 engineer, you are not supposed to get it by yourself.

Huh?
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Engineers accustomed to objective elegance in mathematics, may not get more subjective and hidden meaning, between the lines of the National Code of Exceptions (NEC).
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
The demand factor is there because there is no chance that all the loads would come on at the same time. Read the rest of the sentence
Perhaps this will help you xptpcrewx. Look at the reason this is in there. We want to make sure that the wires can carry the load (amperage) that is going to be applied to them without overheating and burning up, period. So the bottom line is the ampacity of the conductors isn't allowed to be less than the actual amperage of the circuit (technically with a fudge factor). It is determined that one can safely reduce the "calculated maximum amperage" on the wires by anticipating nonconcurrent loads of many different items. So we are allowed to calculate the load by adding up all of the items and then reducing that load by applying demand factors, a s others said, because not all stoves are going to have all burners on at the same time, even if 80% of the people are cooking, each burner cycles on and off irregularly and with 100 burners total, 80 of them being used, half of them cycling 50% of the time, half cycling 75% of the time, they will not all be on at the same time. Hence demand.
 
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