NEC UL508A Question

[DANINAD]

is my first post so i hope i am posting on the wright place

I have a friend that has a machine shop with old CNC machines 1999 , 1998 , 1989 , he just move an the city requires him to do field evaluation because the machines does not have the NRTL certification ( has CE and Japanese certs ).
They will check the machines with nec , UL73, and UL508a , the question is they will have any consideration that the machines was built before 2005 the release of the UL508A and article 409 or if i am not wrong even before the ul508 2001 release or the last code changes will be applied on the tests ?
as you know before 2005 SCCR was not required
As a critical components will help to replace the main breaker with one UL approved , does the other breakers (motor circuit breaker ) should be changed also ?
as far as i know to get certified on a new machine even the cables has to be UL approved , but in this case that the machines are old and he is not the manufacturer of the machine any one know how far they go with the tests.

The Japanese machine is 1989 and the technology and control panel worry him , and is nothing UL in there , will be like to have a ford falcon 1960 and need to add seat belts, air bags ,etc to be able to drive it on the street

Thanks

 

[Rolson]

I am just trying to understand the reasoning for the nrtl listing on the machines. I have had the same run around by my local inspectors. I dug deep in the NEC and found a section on industrial machinery that states of you have a name plate with a list of information it would conform enough for you install the power to these machines.
Now another note with nrtl inspection would be done at the present not when built and a field evaluation is going to way more expensive and picky on items. Sccr ratings are not hard to do since only power components are taken into account and worst case scenario could go with a 5 or 10 kaic. Might be a better idea to find a nrtl listed shop and take the panels off and have them bring them up to par and stamp them for you. Could literally save you thousands if not 10s of thousands.
But just spitballing ideas try a couple out. You have nothing to lose.
Good luck

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk

 

[templdl]

If you look at enclosed control where is the UL label affixed, isn't it affixed on the enclosure somewhere? The enclosed control is assembled in a UL shop using components and methods that comply with those required in order to obtain the UL listing. Isn't the kaic rating also affixed to the enclosure. This is because short circuit test have been conducted as an assembly in that enclosure.
The UL listed assembly is referred to in NEN art110.3 "Examination,Installation, and use of Equipment.
(B)Instasllation and Use. Listed and labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance to its instructions included in the listing and labeling."

Now, is the enclosed control the same as it left the factors with its UL listing? It is in the process of being modified.
It is of my opinion that you have two options, to assure that the entire panel complies with the NEC since the UL label has been lost or try to get as UL person in to evaluate the panel and issue a UL approval which zI don't think is going to happen.
As the previous post states kaic rating becomes a big problem in that the components are tested in the enclosure to run the tests. Being in the field this is an issue. Using NEC wiring methods and UL listed components is one thing but testing to achieve a kaic rating is not going to happen.

 

[petersonra]

UL508a requires no testing at all for a SCCR. The SCCR is evaluated according to a supplement that is part of UL508a. The evaluation will determine what the SCCR is going to be.

My guess is an old panel like that will end up being 5 kA, IF the components are acceptable to UL, and it was built to the UL requirements. What some people tend to forget is that the SCCR evaluation procedure requires the panel be built to UL508a standards, including component selection. If they used the wrong color, type, or size of wire, you may be completely out of luck.

Also, only the control panel is listed. The rest of the machine is not part of the listing, although I think there are some pieces that can be included if you are careful in what you ask for.

In many cases, it is less expensive to just buy a new control panel, or have the existing one rebuilt by a UL508a shop rather than try and get a field evaluation. Keep in mind as well that an old machine like that may have no drawings and drawings are a requirement for UL508a listing.

Just a personal peeve here - kAIC has nothing directly to do with the SCCR of a cabinet. AIC is the interrupting rating of an OCPD. The SCCR of an assembly like this is stated as so many kA (of short circuit current).

 

[Jraef]

Bob is right, you cannot base the SCCR rating on anything other than the UL procedure (or technically that of some other NRTL, but they all just use UL's). So if the panels were built in Japan and not built to UL508A standards, you are SOL.

As to the requirement vis a vis "built before 2005"; totally irrelevant. If they had been INSTALLED prior to 2005 and not moved, they might have been grandfathered in. But once he moved, he subjected himself to having the equipment brought up to the latest standards when re-installed.

Your only viable option as I see it is to have the machines shipped to a local UL panel shop and have the control panels re-built and labeled to UL508A. There are many shops that do this sort of thing, I did it a lot when I had a UL panel shop. I specialized in European equipment because I had worked for a German company and understood all of the IEC symbols and methods. I did a few Japanese machines as well and I can tell you it most likely will have to be completely gutted and rebuilt. They do things there that you cannot get away with here, and they have / had an attitude about getting UL listings on components. So most likely they used a lot of non-UL listed parts inside, which will not be able to be re-used. If they are CNC machines and have proprietary CNC controllers on them, there are ways for the UL panel shop to isolate and re-use them, which may help avoid a lot of new programming etc., but it is not something you can do in the field.

 

[DANINAD]

None of the machines are NRTL approved . as there is not law that require a manufacturer to UL approve the product to sell because submit a product to certification is voluntary, but there is a law to require the user to UL approve the product to plug it and use it.
As the machines are not certified by any NRTL approved by OSHA has to be field evaluated , is not just the panel , the panel has to be with the UL508A but the rest of the machine is evaluated with UL73 for the motors and NEC 2014

Simple he is on the oven , he has all the circuits of course provided by the manufacturer mostly wiring , the plc , spindle drive and I/O board , are not UL on the 1989 machines ( Yasnac control ).
on the others machines all the controls are UL approved ( FANUC ) diagrams and part list is all on the books for the machines .
one has all UL approved components except for the transformer , the other machine has breakers telemecanique they do not have the UL logo but i check on UL listing and they are approved but i think if they do not have the UL logo on them has to be replaced .
I will suggest that to bring a panel builder to the shop and evaluate the panel how far away is to be with the code and see if can be fixed before the evaluation .

what does not fit on my mind is how can require to modify the machine to the last code just because you moved from the original location, the machine has been designed and tested like that and has been working for the past 26 years (any consideration for an Antique ) no problem and want to brig it to the new code knowing that the machine may won't work fine .
There is a guy that i talk he has to go thru the field evaluation with a 2015 cnc machine , after all the changes made the machine was not working fine but get approved , after approved and city is happy, he has to replace new parts with old ones .
He spend $15000 , $6000 on the inspector, $4000 on the technician and $50000 in pars , they made him change the light to an LED and of course has to be wire for the new light so new transformer for 12 v , breakers on the panel , transformers ,etc on a 2015 machine , NOT EVEN THE 2015 IS required to be NRTL approved to sell
they should push the Manufacturers to do it not the users .

 

[petersonra]

the problem with a lot of this old stuff is that they do not meet current standards. It is why they can often be acquired for next to nothing on the used equipment market. It costs more to bring them up to current standards than they are worth. There are often safety issues with them as well that are even more problematic.

 

[Jraef]

the problem with a lot of this old stuff is that they do not meet current standards. It is why they can often be acquired for next to nothing on the used equipment market. It costs more to bring them up to current standards than they are worth. There are often safety issues with them as well that are even more problematic.

Bingo.

If the price looks too good to be true, it probably is.

My wife just saw that the house she grew up in in Minneapolis is up for sale for under $100k, which by California standards is like a down payment. So she got all excited about buying it and turning into an AirB&B thing (it's the house used in Prince's film Purple Rain). The problem is, it needs to be brought up to code, which will likely cost more than the house! Is that "fair"? Depends on how you look at it. If someone were to move in to a sub standard house and get hurt, their lawyers sue the city for not forcing it to be up to code. Same thing with old machinery. Sure, there are special rules for "antiques", but generally they apply to machinery that is NOT going to be used in a real production environment. Once something needs to be inspected, it needs to meet CURRENT standards, not old standards. It was moving it to a new location that triggered the need for re-inspection. It has always bees like that, always will be.

 

[petersonra]

None of the machines are NRTL approved . as there is not law that require a manufacturer to UL approve the product to sell because submit a product to certification is voluntary, but there is a law to require the user to UL approve the product to plug it and use it.

There is no law that requires this type of machine be listed. There are rules in some localities requiring the control panel be listed, but not the machine.

As the machines are not certified by any NRTL approved by OSHA has to be field evaluated , is not just the panel , the panel has to be with the UL508A but the rest of the machine is evaluated with UL73 for the motors and NEC 2014

Since there is no standard by which this machine could be evaluated, there is no NRTL going to do so. There is also no requirement that motors be listed. Whoever is telling you that is just wrong. In any case, UL73 is for motor operated appliances and this is just not an appliance.

one has all UL approved components

UL does not "approve" components. They list them or recognize them. And just because it is listed or recognized by UL does not mean it is acceptable to use in a UL508a listed control panel. There is a chart in the back of UL508a that tells you what parts are acceptable to use. It is mostly based on the UL category code for various components. If the component you want to use is not listed or recognized under that category code, you can't use it in a UL508a panel, even if it is UL listed or recognized.

 

[DANINAD]

Thanks Bob very educative and interesting your post

on your comments about UL73 yes is for appliances but on MET quote for field evaluation mention only UL508A and UL73 will be used to evaluate the machine , when another company mention to NEC and UL508A

Since there is no standard by which this machine could be evaluated, there is no NRTL going to do so. There is also no requirement that motors be listed. Whoever is telling you that is just wrong. In any case, UL73 is for motor operated appliances and this is just not an appliance.

I do not know about that but some companies start to listed and UL approve the machines so will display a plaque with the UL listed info

There is no law that requires this type of machine be listed. There are rules in some localities requiring the control panel be listed, but not the machine.

the electrical inspector from the city look at the CE plaque and was looking for a plaque with NRTL approved by OSHA and has to be visible outside the machine , never check the control panel inside the machine or refer to the control panel to be approved or listed whichever apply




Daniel

 

[DANINAD]

Bingo.

If the price looks too good to be true, it probably is.

My wife just saw that the house she grew up in in Minneapolis is up for sale for under $100k, which by California standards is like a down payment. So she got all excited about buying it and turning into an AirB&B thing (it's the house used in Prince's film Purple Rain). The problem is, it needs to be brought up to code, which will likely cost more than the house! Is that "fair"? Depends on how you look at it. If someone were to move in to a sub standard house and get hurt, their lawyers sue the city for not forcing it to be up to code. Same thing with old machinery. Sure, there are special rules for "antiques", but generally they apply to machinery that is NOT going to be used in a real production environment. Once something needs to be inspected, it needs to meet CURRENT standards, not old standards. It was moving it to a new location that triggered the need for re-inspection. It has always bees like that, always will be.

Well with all respect that rules does not apply to cars and there is cars that because of the technology are not safe as a new one seat belts for example or air bags , or breaks , etc , i forget is only 12 volts and code does not apply , well i think has to do with the grandfather inn.

I think is ok to have periodical evaluation at a fare cost to see if the machines are safe and are working properly , to avoid an electrocution , but i believe they went out of their mind with this , for what it cost at the end is ridiculous and get companies out of business and more unemployed , on the other hand is unfair , only apply for the one has to move the shop or new companies , while others can have machines as old as 1970 and because does not move they are grandfather inn and can have a shop very unsafe but is ok as long as you can stay on the same location. ( i know one shop with really old machines and on this conditions).

you know one of those machines cost $100.000 new , you have to pay $2000 per month over 5 years , most of them are not NRTL listed so if the machine is not build up to code when you buy it ( only few people know to check for that ) and you have to move on a 1 year or 2 after buying , you are toast. you not even pay off the machine and need to spend ridiculous amount of money to bring it up to code .

I am curios on what will happen with my friend , i will be there when the evaluation take place will be instructive and interesting for me , hope is not to bad for my friend because he is freaking out already thinking will have to close leaving 4 people out of work

 

[DANINAD]

the problem with a lot of this old stuff is that they do not meet current standards. It is why they can often be acquired for next to nothing on the used equipment market. It costs more to bring them up to current standards than they are worth. There are often safety issues with them as well that are even more problematic.

you will be surprise at least in Florida , they may be use the code excuse to buying cheaper from you, but they won't go down on price that easy wen selling , when people start to know this NRTL issue will affect them , nobody wants to buy a machine to bring it up to code when is to costly to do it .

not even the new machines meet the current standards , just find out that a guy has to spend $15000 on a 2015 machine to bring it up to code .

 

[iwire]

Well with all respect that rules does not apply to cars and there is cars that because of the technology are not safe as a new one seat belts for example or air bags , or breaks , etc , i forget is only 12 volts and code does not apply , well i think has to do with the grandfather inn.

I would say the difference with cars is they are private ownership and not bringing them up to current rules for the most part only effects the drivers / owners of the cars. (There are exceptions to this of course, but think in general)


On the other hand factory equipment is owned by a company and operated by the workers. The workers have little control over the safety of the machine they have to operate other than quitting the job.

If there where no rules in place the workplace would be much more dangerous.

 

[petersonra]

Well with all respect that rules does not apply to cars and there is cars that because of the technology are not safe as a new one seat belts for example or air bags , or breaks , etc , i forget is only 12 volts and code does not apply , well i think has to do with the grandfather inn.

I think is ok to have periodical evaluation at a fare cost to see if the machines are safe and are working properly , to avoid an electrocution , but i believe they went out of their mind with this , for what it cost at the end is ridiculous and get companies out of business and more unemployed , on the other hand is unfair , only apply for the one has to move the shop or new companies , while others can have machines as old as 1970 and because does not move they are grandfather inn and can have a shop very unsafe but is ok as long as you can stay on the same location. ( i know one shop with really old machines and on this conditions).

you know one of those machines cost $100.000 new , you have to pay $2000 per month over 5 years , most of them are not NRTL listed so if the machine is not build up to code when you buy it ( only few people know to check for that ) and you have to move on a 1 year or 2 after buying , you are toast. you not even pay off the machine and need to spend ridiculous amount of money to bring it up to code .

I am curios on what will happen with my friend , i will be there when the evaluation take place will be instructive and interesting for me , hope is not to bad for my friend because he is freaking out already thinking will have to close leaving 4 people out of work

First off, if there is a safety hazard with a piece of equipment, OSHA requires the employer deal with it regardless of how old the machine is if the business has employees that are exposed to the hazard. There is no exemption for old equipment that is unsafe. If the business consists entirely of the owner, OSHA may not care. But if there are employees involved, there is no exemption to the safety requirements.

Meeting the current electrical code is not necessarily about safety. It is solely about what the minimum standard for an electrical installation the local AHJ is willing to accept.

People who do not know enough about machinery to know that they should check to see that it is both safe and something that meets the local codes where they want to install it, probably should not be buying machinery.

It appears to me that the owner made a bad mistake. That happens now and then. People who do not know any better, just do not know any better and are often unwilling to learn. I occasionally say that the difference between a professional and an amatuer is not so much the difference in what they know, but that the pro knows when he does not know, and the amatuer does not.

 

[DANINAD]

I would say the difference with cars is they are private ownership and not bringing them up to current rules for the most part only effects the drivers / owners of the cars. (There are exceptions to this of course, but think in general)


On the other hand factory equipment is owned by a company and operated by the workers. The workers have little control over the safety of the machine they have to operate other than quitting the job.

If there where no rules in place the workplace would be much more dangerous.

yeap you wright a car is private ownership, has more chances of an accident for not braking on time than new ones but also are newer cars that are in worst condition , and like i said on another post i agree that machines has to have periodic test to provide a safe place of work , but i think this is too much , they are going way to far on the way they regulate this , first municipalities ,state,government, must regulate the seller and not punish the buyer for something should be up to code from the beginning , in this case to bring it to the new code won't have to big of impact , people does not know all this codes and when they find out always will be hard and expensive to deal with the problem . And allowing the seller ( new machine ) get away with the regulations indirectly are also responsible for contribute to a possible unsafe place of work , like a company i now they bought a new machine to replace an old one, Now an untested machine , safe or not , compliant with code or not , is not UL tested at all ( is CE ) is operated by workers that as the company owner does not have any idea about all this regulations, (well the owners knows now , i talk to him to see if he has to go true this evaluation and he is hopping he does not have to do it because none of the machine he has are NRTL listed )



now what will happen if, let's say i will buy a machine for my private hobby not for business (no company owned ) ?

 

[DANINAD]

First off, if there is a safety hazard with a piece of equipment, OSHA requires the employer deal with it regardless of how old the machine is if the business has employees that are exposed to the hazard. There is no exemption for old equipment that is unsafe. If the business consists entirely of the owner, OSHA may not care. But if there are employees involved, there is no exemption to the safety requirements.

Meeting the current electrical code is not necessarily about safety. It is solely about what the minimum standard for an electrical installation the local AHJ is willing to accept.

Agree with OSHA but also i agree that an old machine can be as safe as a new one just because new ones are not regulated to be compliant or i should say tested by an NRTL approved company .

People who do not know enough about machinery to know that they should check to see that it is both safe and something that meets the local codes where they want to install it, probably should not be buying machinery.

Well people dos not take a lawyer course to buy a house or read every line on a new mortgage contract (they should ), i guess you will never know everything (not for you Bob i mean in general ).
When he bought the machines with all the government and city regulations he never expect that a new machine won't has to be regulated to be sold , you find the UL even on a hair dryer , how you will think that a $100.000 machine will not be ok to plug and play , when he bought the machines on 1998 ,2000 and even 2013 the electrical inspector from the city never point at that codes

It appears to me that the owner made a bad mistake. That happens now and then. People who do not know any better, just do not know any better and are often unwilling to learn. I occasionally say that the difference between a professional and an amatuer is not so much the difference in what they know, but that the pro knows when he does not know, and the amatuer does not.

Hoooooo yessss he just realize that moving to be in a better place and progress just backfire . some times he reads with me all this posts and want to cry ( like right now )

Daniel

 

[DANINAD]

thanks for the comments ,you guys are grate i feel really well seen that on this forum are people ready to help , from now on i will try to concentrate on the technical questions , I won't be able to change or bend the rules like OJ Simpson lawyer so i will try to dig on what can be done to make my friend pass the storm with the less damage possible , i don't won't see him closing down i feel really bad for him



Thanks
Daniel

 

[petersonra]

Agree with OSHA but also i agree that an old machine can be as safe as a new one just because new ones are not regulated to be compliant or i should say tested by an NRTL approved company .

There is nothing that inherently prevents an old machine from being as safe as a new one. Most machines beyond those that plug into a wall socket are not NRTL tested, listed, or anything else. The control panels often are, but nothing else.

Well people dos not take a lawyer course to buy a house or read every line on a new mortgage contract (they should ), i guess you will never know everything (not for you Bob i mean in general ).

Only an idiot would close on a house without having his lawyer there with him. It is amazing to me how much exposure people will accept to save a few hundred bucks on a lawyer when buying a house.

When he bought the machines with all the government and city regulations he never expect that a new machine won't has to be regulated to be sold , you find the UL even on a hair dryer , how you will think that a $100.000 machine will not be ok to plug and play , when he bought the machines on 1998 ,2000 and even 2013 the electrical inspector from the city never point at that codes

It is always the responsibility of the owner to make sure whatever is being installed meets the current codes. There are plenty of practices that went on 20 or 30 years ago that are no longer allowed. There are new requirements added to the code every time a new version comes out. That is why one hires a competent EC to perform electrical installations. There is just too much that can be missed by an amateur. In any case, it is not the manufacturer's responsibility to make sure that a machine meets local codes. That is the owner's problem.

Hoooooo yessss he just realize that moving to be in a better place and progress just backfire . some times he reads with me all this posts and want to cry ( like right now )

There is something called "due diligence". It does not quite apply to this case but it comes close. Before one engages in major purchases or moves, it is a real good idea to take a close look at all the things that entails. The problem is that many people just do not know what they are into until it slaps them upside the head.

 

[DANINAD]

It is always the responsibility of the owner to make sure whatever is being installed meets the current codes. There are plenty of practices that went on 20 or 30 years ago that are no longer allowed. There are new requirements added to the code every time a new version comes out. That is why one hires a competent EC to perform electrical installations. There is just too much that can be missed by an amateur. In any case, it is not the manufacturer's responsibility to make sure that a machine meets local codes. That is the owner's problem.

He always hire an electrician to install the machines and always with city permits .

I ignore all this regulations never new that all the plaques (CE,AJA,etc) you see on the machines means nothing in USA , is good to know that you can't trust a manufacturer ( to be honest i never trust the government )
looks like to buy something or make any decision you have to hire a full stuff of professionals to cover your back lawyers , engineers on different fields , etc . I learn that work for a company has benefits , less headache just do my job and go home relax and leave all the problems at work, this make me think on my ambitions , i was planing to be a licensed electrician and eventually work for myself , but i think i will get my license and look for a good company to work for .



does anybody knows a panel builder on south florida that can take a look at those machines before the field evaluation .?


also i am looking for some connectors to replace on the machine but i just find minimum quantities of 50 per bag and they want $8 a pc when i need 2 of each model , or any suggestions on what to use , the connectors are used to attach the corrugated plastic to the connector . there is 2 sizes of corrugated plastic 12 and 16 , in one side connect with the conduit and on the other side with an amphenol connector that has 1-20 unf thread
i can post pictures if is required, (the manufacturer does not have ider the parts or the cable assembly )

RQG-U 18 16
RQG-U 18 12




Daniel

 

[DANINAD]

does anybody knows a panel builder on south florida that can take a look at those machines before the field evaluation .?

never mind i found one