Need advice on service upgrade

T

theavidcitizen

Member
Location
Eastern Washington State
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Residential service work is not my forte, but as a new electrical contractor, it goes where it goes. Need some advice on how to proceed.

Customer is requesting an upgrade from 100A to 200A, overhead service. The only real issue is the meter socket is built into the exterior of the house and the service mast is run through the wall cavity.

My question is how to connect an CSED(AIO) without demo-ing the existing meter socket can. The can is set into the joist cavity, and the wall sheathing, vapor barrier, and expensive custom shiplap siding with only roughly the cover showing on the outside of the house. Any attempt to extract this F'r is going to cost big money to repair, so I'm looking for options.

First thought was to remove the meter socket guts and use the existing meter can as an auxiliary gutter by installing a blank meter cover over the meter hole and running the service entry feeders through the existing can into the back of the AIO. Relatively ugly, I know, but it's also fast and cheap considering the alternative. I think if the existing meter socket can cover can have a utility ring on it and be locked, it would help my case for defining it as an auxiliary gutter.
 
Are you saying that the existing service conductors are run within the structure and not on the outside?
 
infinity said:
Are you saying that the existing service conductors are run within the structure and not on the outside?
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Very common on the west coast to run riser up the inside of the wall.

OP needs to open wall and replace with new panel in the wall or install a surface mounted panel with new riser on the exterior. The proposal of extending the service conductors through the existing panel into the back of a new panel is not a good option. It will not comply with the NEC or utility requirements.
 
theavidcitizen said:
I think if the existing meter socket can cover can have a utility ring on it and be locked, it would help my case for defining it as an auxiliary gutter.
Click to expand...
There is no way that the meter can is an auxiliary gutter. It does not expand the wiring space of another enclosure. It would simply be a junction or pull box, but then there may be issues with 314.28 when you run the conductor through it.
PS: I have no idea what CESD or AIO is. Those are not terms used around here.
 
infinity said:
Are you saying that the existing service conductors are run within the structure and not on the outside?
Click to expand...
I apologize, I didn't explain the setup very well.

The overhead service mast is RMC, comes in through the roof of the house, at the edge of the house, down through an exterior wall, to a single meter socket that is also mounted inside of the stud cavity. The wall sheathing and siding were installed afterwards. We're trying to use the existing raceway without removing the existing meter can, then adding another small raceway out the bottom to go into a meter main all-in-one box.
 
Not sure how to embed pictures in this forum, so here's a link to what we're talking about..

https://imgur.com/a/baR1jkK

The wire would pass through the top of the existing meter can and out the bottom, so I don't think 314.28 would restrict based on dimensionality or bends, as there would be none. The meter socket can would still be 3R rated with a black socket cover and a ring on it.

Here's my crayon drawing of what I'm trying to do...

https://imgur.com//a/m8iz7CM
 
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theavidcitizen said:
The overhead service mast is RMC, comes in through the roof of the house, at the edge of the house, down through an exterior wall
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First, that is not permitted by the NEC, but I understand that is common practice in some areas.

314..28 for a straight pull will apply. Is the meter can top to bottom dimension at least 8 times the raceway trade size?

Not sure how you are going to bring the 2" FMC into the back of the new enclosure. 348.24(A) sets a minimum bending radius of 9.5". Angle connectors are not permitted to be concealed in the wall.

Other that that, I don't see a code issue. Many utilities will have an objection to a junction box on the line side of their meter, but then may accept it with a seal.
 
If this is WA state, I think you get 15' of service conductor in the wall before it hits an over current device. So was probably legal and may still be as long as the conduit is IMC/RMC.

What is that thing outside on the ground in front of the meter? Is it an AC unit that is blocking access to the meter?

I can't see the roof line but would be inclined to just put blinders on and run a new mast on the outside of the wall to a new meter base, then over or down to the emergency disconnect, and then LB into the wall to get inside. The meter or disconnect could be mounted on the wall right on top of the old one if you abandon it in place and cover it up. I think using that old small meter enclosure is going to be a challenge when using 2" raceways and large conductors. Then cut off the old mast when you are done (maybe make it look like a plumbing vent) and cap it.
 
suemarkp said:
If this is WA state, I think you get 15' of service conductor in the wall before it hits an over current device. So was probably legal and may still be as long as the conduit is IMC/RMC.

What is that thing outside on the ground in front of the meter? Is it an AC unit that is blocking access to the meter?

I can't see the roof line but would be inclined to just put blinders on and run a new mast on the outside of the wall to a new meter base, then over or down to the emergency disconnect, and then LB into the wall to get inside. The meter or disconnect could be mounted on the wall right on top of the old one if you abandon it in place and cover it up. I think using that old small meter enclosure is going to be a challenge when using 2" raceways and large conductors. Then cut off the old mast when you are done (maybe make it look like a plumbing vent) and cap it.
Click to expand...
Old meter socket wouldn’t have a 200A rating.
No way to re utilize that at all.
 
suemarkp said:
If this is WA state, I think you get 15' of service conductor in the wall before it hits an over current device. So was probably legal and may still be as long as the conduit is IMC/RMC.

What is that thing outside on the ground in front of the meter? Is it an AC unit that is blocking access to the meter?

I can't see the roof line but would be inclined to just put blinders on and run a new mast on the outside of the wall to a new meter base, then over or down to the emergency disconnect, and then LB into the wall to get inside. The meter or disconnect could be mounted on the wall right on top of the old one if you abandon it in place and cover it up. I think using that old small meter enclosure is going to be a challenge when using 2" raceways and large conductors. Then cut off the old mast when you are done (maybe make it look like a plumbing vent) and cap it.
Click to expand...
I agree. Cut the old mast and cap it. Run a new one on the surface. Cut the old meter socket flush with the siding or remove it and install the new one over it to cover the mess
 
nizak said:
Old meter socket wouldn’t have a 200A rating.
No way to re utilize that at all.
Click to expand...
It was mentioned to try and use it as a pull box. So amp rating doesn't matter, but I suspect it is too small from wall to wall to support conductors #4 or larger when the raceway is 2". If the raceways were 1.5" then maybe. I've seen 100A meters in two sizes. One is really small without much space above and blow the meter. The other is larger and may share or be real close to a 200 meter chassis.
 
suemarkp said:
If this is WA state, I think you get 15' of service conductor in the wall before it hits an over current device. So was probably legal and may still be as long as the conduit is IMC/RMC.

What is that thing outside on the ground in front of the meter? Is it an AC unit that is blocking access to the meter?

I can't see the roof line but would be inclined to just put blinders on and run a new mast on the outside of the wall to a new meter base, then over or down to the emergency disconnect, and then LB into the wall to get inside. The meter or disconnect could be mounted on the wall right on top of the old one if you abandon it in place and cover it up. I think using that old small meter enclosure is going to be a challenge when using 2" raceways and large conductors. Then cut off the old mast when you are done (maybe make it look like a plumbing vent) and cap it.
Click to expand...
Honestly, this is the route we're going with. A new mast through the soffit and roof isn't the worst, just more than the customer wanted. But it beats carving up the siding trying to make it all work. We can go straight down into the meter side of the CSED, then pvc to an LB into the basement to the new panel. Anyway, thanks for the advice.
 
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