Let me start by saying I am not an electrician,just a homeowner in need of help. I just had an addition put on my home,the electrician that did the electical work, well let me say he didn't care enough about the nec to follow it. Once I cought on to some of the things he was doing I confronted him about it, he threatened me by saying,(this is a small town and I'll see to it that you don't get a final inspection!)then he stormed out the door and said he wasn't coming back. I didn't know at the time there was supposed to be a roughin inspection, didn't realize it until the inspector showed up one day after the rock was up.I met him at the door and ask him about it he didn't have much to say. All he did that day was count switches and outlets. Sorry for running on,Back to the work done,how about two 20amp circuits in the kitchen that include 12 recessed lights,under the cabinet lighting toe-kick lighting,and a garbage disposal all on my designated 20amp small appl. circuits.How about an over stuffed 3 gang switch box to the point he broke a 3-way stack sw. taped it up and stuffed in the box an left the circuit breaker tripped.How about no AFCI in the bedrooms said his inspector doesn't recognize them? When I pointed out the fact that he neglected to put any outlets at all on a 8 foot stretch of kitchen counter he told his head elec. to put three in rework boxes and tie them into the toe kick heaters.Well as he cut three holes in the rock the middle one fell right in line with a stud so he just cut the stud out and screwed the box through the top and bottom into the gap.This WAS a load bearing wall! What about use-2 for subfeed from the main panel 25' thru the basement of the main part of the house (with only 20' of conduit) I guess once they came to a bend in the wire they stopped, then it goes thru the the concrete wall (no conduit)for 28' under the new addition (crawl space )just laying on top of the ground till it goes thru another concrete wall to the garage. I called another electical inspector to ask him to come to the house and check this out and he said he didn't want to get involved. Oh ya my new 200amp service the riser service raceway that goes up through the eve (it didn't at first he stopped it right next to a bedroom window he argued with me about that one) well now the weather head is 12" above the shingles and you guessed it the drip loop is laying right on the roof! I am very sorry for running on so long I am just so frustraited and don't know where to turn, I went out and bought a 2005 N.E.C.handbook so I could better educate myself on the matter and to protect myself. But when the inspector I called said he didn't want to get involved I don't know where to turn. Is there someone I can contact outside of this "small" town that can enforce the code? Please help if you have any insight it would be greatly appreciated. I just wanted to say thank you to everone responsable for making this websight and this forum possible.
Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
- Thread starter daddg
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
Sorry to say but you're in a bad situation. After reading your post I had a few thoughts. The first one being that at some point you will need to have all of the violations installed by this guy fixed and brought up to code. This would be the code that has been legally adopted by your jurisdiction. It may or may not be the same 2005 NEC code that is in your handbook.
Secondly you have, in my opinion two cases of professional misconduct. One by the electrician and one by the inspector. You need to go to the agency who governs the inspector and the electrician and file a formal complaint based on their incompetence. Here in NJ you would have the Board of Electrical Contractors to complain to. They are very consumer friendly and have been known to hit licensed electricians with large fines resulting from jobs like yours. I'm unsure of what your options are in NYS.
Next I would have an independent inspection done on the work and ask for a written report. Probably the best inspection, from a legal standpoint, would be by a professional engineer who is familiar with the current electrical code that your jurisdiction follows. You could also have this done by a licensed electrician but a PE's report may give you a little more muscle if you need to take someone to court.
I hope that it all works out for you. Let us know what the end result is. As electrical professionals we don't like to see a few bad guys making us all look unprofessional.
Trevor
Licensed Electrical Contractor- New Jersey
Sorry to say but you're in a bad situation. After reading your post I had a few thoughts. The first one being that at some point you will need to have all of the violations installed by this guy fixed and brought up to code. This would be the code that has been legally adopted by your jurisdiction. It may or may not be the same 2005 NEC code that is in your handbook.
Secondly you have, in my opinion two cases of professional misconduct. One by the electrician and one by the inspector. You need to go to the agency who governs the inspector and the electrician and file a formal complaint based on their incompetence. Here in NJ you would have the Board of Electrical Contractors to complain to. They are very consumer friendly and have been known to hit licensed electricians with large fines resulting from jobs like yours. I'm unsure of what your options are in NYS.
Next I would have an independent inspection done on the work and ask for a written report. Probably the best inspection, from a legal standpoint, would be by a professional engineer who is familiar with the current electrical code that your jurisdiction follows. You could also have this done by a licensed electrician but a PE's report may give you a little more muscle if you need to take someone to court.
I hope that it all works out for you. Let us know what the end result is. As electrical professionals we don't like to see a few bad guys making us all look unprofessional.
Trevor
Licensed Electrical Contractor- New Jersey
stars13bars2
Senior Member
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
This was the guy with the lowest price right.
This was the guy with the lowest price right.
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
First let me say WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Here is a number for the department of state code divesion in NY (518)474-4073. If you want to contact me my email adresses is XXXX. Hope this helps.
(Moderator?s Note: Edited to remove email address. If you wish to send an email message to this person, then first send a Private Message via this Forum, and ask for the email address.)
[ February 21, 2006, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
First let me say WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Here is a number for the department of state code divesion in NY (518)474-4073. If you want to contact me my email adresses is XXXX. Hope this helps.
(Moderator?s Note: Edited to remove email address. If you wish to send an email message to this person, then first send a Private Message via this Forum, and ask for the email address.)
[ February 21, 2006, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
daddg, is this a licensed electrical contractor or just someone working under a homeowner permit? It doesn't sound as if there is a General Contractor involved ( no inspection before sheet-rock ). Was there a contract and a set of plans or scope of work? How much money was paid up front? If this was someone working by the hour, off the books, you may have a problem getting things corrected. I would have a licensed electrician write a report on the condition of the wiring, if you hire an engineer he will just sub the work to an electrician.
daddg, is this a licensed electrical contractor or just someone working under a homeowner permit? It doesn't sound as if there is a General Contractor involved ( no inspection before sheet-rock ). Was there a contract and a set of plans or scope of work? How much money was paid up front? If this was someone working by the hour, off the books, you may have a problem getting things corrected. I would have a licensed electrician write a report on the condition of the wiring, if you hire an engineer he will just sub the work to an electrician.
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
Wow -- what a mess.
I have a hard time believing that a licensed electrician would do such poor work. But I'm pretty sure NYS has local licensing, and it's entirely possible the local Old Boys Network lets incompetent people get licensed, provided they know the right people. Perhaps the inspector is also connected this way, seeing as how he didn't seem to care that such poor work was done. Maybe the inspector has a boss who cares, but if not, your only option may be the court system.
Trevor is right -- these violations need to be fixed. I don't think a professional engineer is the best person to consult, though. It might sound "better" than an electrical contractor, but I suspect most PEs don't do much work involving single-family homes, whereas an reputable electrical contractor will be much more familiar with residential work.
Wow -- what a mess.
I have a hard time believing that a licensed electrician would do such poor work. But I'm pretty sure NYS has local licensing, and it's entirely possible the local Old Boys Network lets incompetent people get licensed, provided they know the right people. Perhaps the inspector is also connected this way, seeing as how he didn't seem to care that such poor work was done. Maybe the inspector has a boss who cares, but if not, your only option may be the court system.
Trevor is right -- these violations need to be fixed. I don't think a professional engineer is the best person to consult, though. It might sound "better" than an electrical contractor, but I suspect most PEs don't do much work involving single-family homes, whereas an reputable electrical contractor will be much more familiar with residential work.
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
When I read this post it makes me upset to here that this guy is a electrician it is a shame that a homeowner has more knowledge and concern then the so- called electrician.Like we say in Jersey " wiring is no hobby call a licensed electrician" preferably a quality one.
Marky Sparky NJ Licensed Electrician
When I read this post it makes me upset to here that this guy is a electrician it is a shame that a homeowner has more knowledge and concern then the so- called electrician.Like we say in Jersey " wiring is no hobby call a licensed electrician" preferably a quality one.
Marky Sparky NJ Licensed Electrician
throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
When the H.O. takes it upon themselves to hire some jackleg and gets taken for a ride, it is out of the localities hands. The H.O. would not be represented by an arbitraire from the locality. They need to get a lawyer and seek civil damages. There is also a little waiver they must sign for the permit, acknowledging that if they hire someone to do the work, they must be licensed, bonded, and insured. Any conflicts arising in contractual agreements when the H.O. is assuming ALL responsibilities shall be between such parties.
Had the electrician pulled the permit for the work being performed and a H.O. brought this to our attention, we would definitely intervene. A letter to correct such violations would be presented to the EC and a report to Richmond Va would follow. Call them blackmarks if you'd like. Enough of them will get their license revoked and further work barred within the state.
Sorry to hear about your conflicts ddadg, but you should probably consult a lawyer if you signed such a release form as mentioned above.
Trevor, here in Va. it is a little different. The H.O. can pull the permit themselves. If they choose to have a permit issued to them, it is assumed all work is being done by them, or a licensed contractor, in ink. If there is a contract and the "said" electrician is not licensed, then the State could pursue prosecution, but by signing the waiver, the H.O. assumes ALL responsibilities of said construction in such locality.
When the H.O. takes it upon themselves to hire some jackleg and gets taken for a ride, it is out of the localities hands. The H.O. would not be represented by an arbitraire from the locality. They need to get a lawyer and seek civil damages. There is also a little waiver they must sign for the permit, acknowledging that if they hire someone to do the work, they must be licensed, bonded, and insured. Any conflicts arising in contractual agreements when the H.O. is assuming ALL responsibilities shall be between such parties.
Had the electrician pulled the permit for the work being performed and a H.O. brought this to our attention, we would definitely intervene. A letter to correct such violations would be presented to the EC and a report to Richmond Va would follow. Call them blackmarks if you'd like. Enough of them will get their license revoked and further work barred within the state.
Sorry to hear about your conflicts ddadg, but you should probably consult a lawyer if you signed such a release form as mentioned above.
mthead
Senior Member
- Location
- Long Beach,NY
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
mthead
Senior Member
- Location
- Long Beach,NY
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
I'm at a loss for words.As an inspector in N.Y.[my agency covers the entire state]I can tell you numerous different scenarios as to what was actually happening in that situation.But it would seem that you see only the one .very vague scenario painted by this h/owner.
What would you say if I started making such suggestions to a h/owner who had a beef with you in an inspection situation w/out entertaining an explanation from you .?
Infinity ,I'm impressed!You were able to determine that an inspector is at fault simply by reading a single sentence from a h/owner who's story you are taking at more than face value.On that basis you recomend reporting him to anyone who can do him in.
I'm at a loss for words.As an inspector in N.Y.[my agency covers the entire state]I can tell you numerous different scenarios as to what was actually happening in that situation.But it would seem that you see only the one .very vague scenario painted by this h/owner.
What would you say if I started making such suggestions to a h/owner who had a beef with you in an inspection situation w/out entertaining an explanation from you .?
Brian D
Member
- Location
- Mahopac, NY
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
What county was did this happen in?
What county was did this happen in?
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
daddg,
I dont see this as having anything to do with the inspector. NY does not have state level licensing and local licensing typically only exists in mid-size and larger cities. I assume since you said "small town" you have no licensing, thus there is no agancy to reprimand the 'electrician'. I think your only option is a small claims civil suit. Hopefully you can get financial compensation for his poor work. This guy sounds like a real hack.
daddg,
I dont see this as having anything to do with the inspector. NY does not have state level licensing and local licensing typically only exists in mid-size and larger cities. I assume since you said "small town" you have no licensing, thus there is no agancy to reprimand the 'electrician'. I think your only option is a small claims civil suit. Hopefully you can get financial compensation for his poor work. This guy sounds like a real hack.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
In case you didn't really read the OP, the person said that they had the inspector show up at the house. In answering the question I can only base my response on the facts presented in the OP. That simple fact being that someone showed up to perform an inspection. Now I'm not sure how things work in some parts of NYS but how can you call something an inspection if all of the walls are closed in? Twelve fixtures on the SA circuit in the kitchen. The customer is getting ripped off and you're defending the inspector? If this is how things operate in parts of NYS I'm glad that I live and work in New Jersey. At least here there is some accountability.
The homeowner said that they went to another inspector to help remedy the problem but that person didn't want to get involved. So as an inspector in N.Y.[my agency covers the entire state] how should the HO resolve this problem? Your post saying nothing about a possible remedy. Maybe you could try providing one. That is the reason this person posted here in the first place.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
If the wiring is not as the h/o is describing it, then the EC should explain and defend his installation. If the wiring is as described, then the h/o should bang a drum and hold signs outside the EC's house to announce to all his neighbors what an utter scumbag he is.
If I allowed a (sane) customer to believe their house was in ruins, I didn't wire it to code, didn't notify for or call for a rough inspection, and then walked out when my destruction was at it's peak, I would expect to see a picket sign in my yard, and a call from the electrical board!
Mthead, what decent human being (let alone electrician) would conceive of abandoning a customer in the way described?
If the wiring is not as the h/o is describing it, then the EC should explain and defend his installation. If the wiring is as described, then the h/o should bang a drum and hold signs outside the EC's house to announce to all his neighbors what an utter scumbag he is.
If I allowed a (sane) customer to believe their house was in ruins, I didn't wire it to code, didn't notify for or call for a rough inspection, and then walked out when my destruction was at it's peak, I would expect to see a picket sign in my yard, and a call from the electrical board!
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
Insurance companies are an often-overlooked resource in these matters, but they really do care about code compliance. Paying for fire losses or fatalities is NOT what they want to do.
Further, if you occupy your new digs without a valid inspection, your homeowners insurance may not be in force.
After all of this, my first stop would be at my insurance agent. The guy who writes my homeowners insurance. Tell him your troubles, have him talk to his adjusters. They may have some ideas or people you can talk to.
Insurance companies are an often-overlooked resource in these matters, but they really do care about code compliance. Paying for fire losses or fatalities is NOT what they want to do.
Further, if you occupy your new digs without a valid inspection, your homeowners insurance may not be in force.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
[ February 26, 2006, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: infinity ]
One of the things that I like about you George is your way with words.
[ February 26, 2006, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: infinity ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
Thanks, Trevor.
Thanks, Trevor.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
George, I agree with everything you say if this was an EC. But this story sounds a bit fishy to me. If there were concerns about the electrical wiring then why was the sheet rock installed. Second I have never seen an inspector just shrug off a job like this. They only time I have seen this is when the homeowner tries to get an inspection after the job is completed. I ran into one lately where they told the homeowner that he would have to get a PE to sign off on the job or open up the walls for inspection ( they were not willing to assume liability and I can't blame them ). Some homeowners assume that anyone with a tool pouch is an electrician and this is a big mistake. I run into jobs all the time that were done out of the trunk of a car and you can't even find these guys after a few months. They use cell numbers and P.O. boxes as an address. I found one of them ( he screened his calls ) by pretending to be a homeowner looking for a bid on a job. He called back in five minutes, the homeowner had been trying to contact him for days. Even when they get closed down they are back within days with new cell number and P.O. box. No inspections and cash only. You would think that people would learn but they don't. The cheap price wins out.
George, I agree with everything you say if this was an EC. But this story sounds a bit fishy to me. If there were concerns about the electrical wiring then why was the sheet rock installed. Second I have never seen an inspector just shrug off a job like this. They only time I have seen this is when the homeowner tries to get an inspection after the job is completed. I ran into one lately where they told the homeowner that he would have to get a PE to sign off on the job or open up the walls for inspection ( they were not willing to assume liability and I can't blame them ). Some homeowners assume that anyone with a tool pouch is an electrician and this is a big mistake. I run into jobs all the time that were done out of the trunk of a car and you can't even find these guys after a few months. They use cell numbers and P.O. boxes as an address. I found one of them ( he screened his calls ) by pretending to be a homeowner looking for a bid on a job. He called back in five minutes, the homeowner had been trying to contact him for days. Even when they get closed down they are back within days with new cell number and P.O. box. No inspections and cash only. You would think that people would learn but they don't. The cheap price wins out.
speedypetey
Senior Member
- Location
- Hudson Valley, NY
Re: Need HELP in upstate N,Y.
I don't know if daddg is coming back or is reading these replies but electrofelon is absolutely correct.
I live in a Hudson Valley town and in my county I believe there are only two small cities and two villages who require licenses. My local village and one city are two of them. I don't really work near the others.
Needless to say I have always been displeased about this. For exactly the reasons in the original post.
OK, yes, we all do see hack work from hack licensed electricians. But I see way more hack work from "contractors" and carpenters who fancy themselves just smart enough to be dangerous electricians. I have to clean up their messes from time to time. I take great satisfaction when I can say to a H-O "Sorry, I'm not bailing you out from this mess. I won't correct his mistakes". Let someone else do it.
I believe this all come from two things:
1) Lowball prices from wannabe electricians or carpenters. The H-O is more than happy to save a few hundred dollars since "we really don't need to hire a 'real' electrician for this job".
2) Deceptive contractors who convince unsuspecting H-O's that they, or "their guy" can do this job no problem.
I don't know if daddg is coming back or is reading these replies but electrofelon is absolutely correct.
I live in a Hudson Valley town and in my county I believe there are only two small cities and two villages who require licenses. My local village and one city are two of them. I don't really work near the others.
Needless to say I have always been displeased about this. For exactly the reasons in the original post.
OK, yes, we all do see hack work from hack licensed electricians. But I see way more hack work from "contractors" and carpenters who fancy themselves just smart enough to be dangerous electricians. I have to clean up their messes from time to time. I take great satisfaction when I can say to a H-O "Sorry, I'm not bailing you out from this mess. I won't correct his mistakes". Let someone else do it.
I believe this all come from two things:
1) Lowball prices from wannabe electricians or carpenters. The H-O is more than happy to save a few hundred dollars since "we really don't need to hire a 'real' electrician for this job".
2) Deceptive contractors who convince unsuspecting H-O's that they, or "their guy" can do this job no problem.
- Status