Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

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scwirenut

scwirenut

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Location
Sumter, South Carolina
Can a AFCI branch circuit suppying a bedroom also serve other outlets not in the bedroom, such as a hall recept, on the opposite side of the wall?...... I was recently red tagged because the inspector says that nothing but the bedroom can be on with the bedroom, I know he is not interpreting this correctly, the code does not say (shall serve no other outlets), such as it does for bathroom, kitchens, ect. all responses are welcome, but I especially need members of the CMP, IAEC, or CEI. thank you..........RP South Carolina
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

Scwirenut, I'm not any of these and I don't even know what IAEC or CEI is, but there is no restriction to keep an AFCI protection within a bedroom.

The inspector is obviously misinterpreting something.

Roger
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

The NEC is a minimum standard. The requirement in 210.12 is for dwelling unit bedroom branch circuits for 125 V outlets. You can have more than the bedroom on the AFCI, the AHJ should put your violation in writing. The IAEI has a forum you can post there. I am an IAEI member if that helps!
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

scwirenut, In another case where an AFCI outlet would be outside of the bedrooms,is that technically per the NEC 210.12(B), the AFCI powers the smoke detector outlet in the bedroom that interconnects the same circuit to other remaining Smoke detector outlets throughout the house. (I.e. hallway if there is one.)
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

No gray print on this.Any general purpose receptacle or light can be on it.Just how did he get such an idea?If you like you can afci every branch circuit in the house,same as you could a gfci.The bedroom is a min. not exclusive.
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

I agree there is no such restriction.
It's fairly common in split level homes with the bed rooms and bath room(s) on the top level, that the bath room lighting is picked up off the bed room AFCI.

I'm an IAEI member, but I guess we have all figured out that this does not always mean we Know what we're talking about.
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

It is not impossible, though it is unlikely, that there is a local code that covers this. But the NEC would not forbid that installation. As Tom said, get the Inspector to put the violation in writing, citing the applicable code.
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

What that inspector may have been getting at if he/she is enforcing the 1999 NEC, is that the language of 210-12(b) states "All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20- ampere RECEPTACLE OUTLETS...shall be protected...". I have struggled with that (I am an AHJ)--should the lights really be on a AFCI breaker? Do you want the lights to go off when you have a fire hazard in the bedroom? But ceiling fans are a known cause of fires... 2002 NEC changes the language to include all OUTLETS...what will 2005 bring?
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

Whether it says outlets or receptacles it does not limit what we can protect with AFCIs or require separate circuits for each AFCI protected bedroom.
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

If anything you made the job a bit safer.
Usually inspectors find at least 1 or 2 other very small items so just incase you win on the first one they still wrote a legal red tag.To tag for a non violation that they then remove walks a fine line on harassment and they have cost you time and reputation.
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

Thanks guys, my CEI called a few of his IAEI "high up " buddies, who all agreed with me, he was at least man enough to call me on the phone to say he would annouce the change in the mornibg......
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

jimwalker writes:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Usually inspectors find at least 1 or 2 other very small items so just incase you win on the first one they still wrote a legal red tag.To tag for a non violation that they then remove walks a fine line on harassment and they have cost you time and reputation.

It appears you have had some bad experiences with inspectors...... :(
Inspectors are just trying to do the best they can--they are human, too. The code is not always black and white, and we have to make the best judgment we can at the time with the information we have. That's why the Code Forum exists--to brainstorm with our peers. It is much easier to sign off on a job than to write up a red tag and then have to come back again. The job is either completely correct, or not. The "small items" that are wrong make the installation incorrect..
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

It appears you have had some bad experiences with inspectors......
Click to expand...
Don't let your good fortune give you the wrong impression. Sometimes inspectors are just plain nasty people. San Francisco is notorious for these guys. I could tell you some stories of these people wielding their egos around and huffing and puffing over things that aren't even their business. That's not "the best they can". Mother inlaw's in town all the time I guess.

I usually work south of there and the inspectors here are mostly pretty decent. My point is that these two areas are different universes. I'm sure electricians in San Francisco think you're crazy sticking up for the poor inspectors. It's the topic of a lot of humorous conversation here.

[ October 14, 2004, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

Around here the situation has dramatically improved. At one time the building inspectors were so nasty towards HOs doing their own work and non-union contractors they helped drive people out of the city and into outlying areas where the inspectors were not as nasty. I'd be willing to bet a lot of work was done without permits just to avoid the harassment.

I know of several HOs who were harassed about using Romex and told they had to do everything in EMT, even though there was no such requirement. It was just something done by the bldg dept to try and force HOs to use union labour insted of doing the work themselves. IIRC, the unofficial rule was only union contractors could install Romex, everyone else had to use EMT.

As I said, this situation has dramatically improved the last decade or so and I am told the city bldg dept no longer does these kind of things.
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

I was on an HO's permit in SF once and an inspector came stomping in literally kicking things muttering a bunch of stuff home owner's, grumble, home owner's permit. You think there might have been a bias there? It was all ligit!
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

I realize this is an old thread. If you AFCI hall way receps, is there a danger of them false tripping (vacuums I'm thinking), or is that pretty much taken care of on the new AFCI's nowadays?
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

Physis, I'm not an inspector and never have been but I would hate to try to inspect some of the jobs I have seen done under homeowner permits. I'm sure that you did a great job but just seeing that permit probably put the inspector in a bad mood. The bias against homeowner permits comes from the fact that an inspector doesn't want to have to design the job for the homeowner and many times that is what it comes down to. I really hate to work on a job where someone that didn't know or care what they were doing continues to make a mess until they are totally lost and then calls someone to correct it. In many cases it would be much easier to do the job from the begining. I'm sure that many inspectors feel lost when dealing with homeowners. Contractors know that they have to be Code Compliant but many homeowners feel that it is their property and they should be allowed to do what ever they want. It's just so much easier for an inspector to deal with a professional contractor because they know they have us by the profit margin.
 
Re: Need response from CMP, IAEC, ect..... HELP

AC-DC: I suggest you start a new thread to address your question. This one is too old.

Growler: You are responding to a comment that is three days shy of being one year old.

I am going to closed this thread. There is nothing to be gained from extending it into new areas.
 
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