Need some input

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nickelec

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In regards to tap rules I have a job where I'm arguing with the engineer that I'm right what say u guys here's the details

Plans say to run a riser to each floor into a splice box , from that splice box pipe into a MLO panel

I say OCPD is needed the engineer is arguing 240.21 (b)

I'm arguing 240.21 (B) (1) (1) states specificly the tap conductors do not extend beyond the switchboard paddleboard disconnecting means or control devices they Supply so if you were to use the actual panel board as the splice box fine no OCPD nneeded

once you leave that enclosure in my opinion 240.21 (B) (1) (1) is out the window and protection is needed weather or not it's 10' or less

240.21(b) (2)(2) says the tap conductors terminate in a single circuit breaker or single set of fuses that limit the load to the ampacity of the tap conductors this device shall be permitted to supply any number of additional overcurrent devices on his load side

Am I seeing this wrong? Who agrees or disagrees

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My argument is not so much the sizes but more the face that the tap is not in the same enclosure which would mean OCPD is required or am I over thinking this

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nickelec said:
100a bucket in basement #2cu riser and #4cu tap 100a panel

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Until I am overridden by more knowledgeable, I vote for you.

Change the #4 to a #2 and I would vote for him merely because the conductors would be protected at their ampacity.

Problem at one floor becomes everyone’s. That should make for interesting no pressure service calls.
 
ptonsparky said:
Until I am overridden by more knowledgeable, I vote for you.

Change the #4 to a #2 and I would vote for him merely because the conductors would be protected at their ampacity.

Problem at one floor becomes everyone’s. That should make for interesting no pressure service calls.
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I would agree with that if the tap was in the same enclosure that's the issue I'm having with this whole thing

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I think you need to terminate on an OCPD, but I'm seeing a different reason. The taps can leave the enclosure where the tap is made. They changed the wording in (B)(1) slightly a little while ago. Here is a summary I found on the Web while looking for the actual code wording (I'm traveling and don't have my book with me):

The change in 240.21(B)(1)(1)(b) makes it clear that the tap conductor ampacity cannot be less than the rating of the equipment containing an overcurrent device(s) supplied by the tap conductors or not less than the rating of the overcurrent protective device at the termination of the tap conductors.

The previous code language allowed the tap conductor ampacity to be rated no less than the “device” supplied by the tap conductors. This was misleading and opened the door to the idea that a tap conductor could be without any overcurrent protection at the load end of the conductor if it supplied a device rather than an overcurrent device.
 
I agree with that but it's a nycha development these units have a couple outlets and lights and maybe an AC undersized probably, but they won't go for an up grade

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