NEM

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In the beginning of the year in New York State, net metering expired and has been replaced with, what I think, is a fair system. There are two options. One is the "value stack" Tariff rate.

The Value Stack Tariff considers the costs and benefits of solar to the grid and the environment, and the rate varies - depending on factors like what time and where the electricity was produced. There is also a fixed per month fee per KW of system size, about 50 cents per KW. The other option is to keep net metering, but pay an increased monthly fee of about a dollar per KW. Neither of these arrangements are "buy all sell all" so production offsets usage "before" being fed to the grid.
 
ggunn said:
If you are willing to pay $1.00 per kWh I guess you could do that.
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It's more like $.30-$.50 per kWh if you are going to maintain a grid connection for high demand, i.e. install non-export system where you don't count upon getting paid anything for exporting. That's if there are no unfair penalties for doing so.

If you are truly going to off grid then that figure only holds if your highest demand is extremely low for an American household. For most households to be truly off-grid with current usage, $1.00 would be low.
 
Terminology:

Net metering means an arrangement where exports to the utility are credited at something based on, but not necessarily equal to, the retail rate for imports.

'Net billing' is a term that means any credit for exports is based on something other than the retail rate, such as a prevailing wholesale rate or a special value of exports rate.

In my experience both tend to get lumped under 'net metering' when people are not meaning to be specific. However, in the thread above, HvLv is using 'we don't allow met metering' in the specific sense, because they do allow net billing. Whereas the coops mentioned as not allowing solar at all are not allowing either. BTW the latter may be a violation of the 1978 federal PURPA act.

Also 'net metering' tends to imply that within a 'netting interval' exports and imports cancel each other out. E.g. if the interval is an hour and within that hour I exported 2.3kwh and imported 2.7kwh then I get billed for importing .4kwh for that hour. By contrast, 'instantaneous netting' means I would get credited for the full 2.3kwh exported and billed for the full 2.7kwh imported, whatever those rates are. The former tends to go along with the idea of net metering, and latter with net billing, but there's nothing to stop regulators from mixing and matching different netting with rate basis. In fact keeping an hour netting interval with a net billing system might be a middle ground policy to balance competing interests.
 
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jaggedben said:
Terminology:

Net metering means an arrangement where exports to the utility are credited at something based on, but not necessarily equal to, the retail rate for imports.

'Net billing' is a term that means any credit for exports is based on something other than the retail rate, such as a prevailing wholesale rate or a special value of exports rate.

In my experience both tend to get lumped under 'net metering' when people are not meaning to be specific. However, in the thread above, HvLv is using 'we don't allow met metering' in the specific sense, because they do allow net billing. Whereas the coops mentioned as not allowing solar at all are not allowing either. BTW the latter may be a violation of the 1978 federal PURPA act.
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Correct.

We do allow Net billing.
And I believe it is fair to all.
We pay avoided wholesale rate to all exported power through one meter. Use all you produce and sell excess at the price we pay other providers. We pay TWICE RETAIL rate for anything produced during peak hours.

We had a two meter policy (buy all sell all) I didn’t agree with. It wasn’t fair IMO.

It isn’t a violation of PURPA.
 
Because of the way wholesale energy costs fluctuate but retail prices are fixed, the wholesale cost can exceed the retail price.

Personally I think this is another way energy pricing is poorly done, although in this case to the benefit of the consumer.

Griddy in Texas tried giving consumers direct access to wholesale markets. That ended up quite the mess.

Jon
 
electrofelon said:
I'm confused. So avoided wholesale is twice retail during peak hours?🤔
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No. Wholesale is just that. And we pay wholesale rate during export. Except at “peak hours”.
During peak hours we pay a premium for any electricity exported because it helps us offset the ridiculously high priced peaking power.
Unfortunately not many can or will export during peak hours because they are using everything they are producing.
 
electro7 said:
I was wondering about NEM in other states. I am in CA and we are going through a fight to try and keep it to some level.

I heard Florida just passed a bill that changed the NEM there. Does anybody know in Florida what it is now- the credited amount you receive as a homeowner when your excess solar goes back to the grid?

Didn't Texas do a similar thing?

I know in Arizona solar was hot until the utility companies put a kibosh to NEM.

Anybody here solar contractors in these areas? If so, is solar still going strong?

Is storage being implemented to help grid and solar consumption?

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Current NEM in FL works much like in CA for IOU's. The bill that just passed the FL House is similar to the CA NEM 3.0 proposal that failed in terms of phasing out NEM and adding fixed monthly charges just for having solar. The bill also adds some liability insurance requirements for larger systems (i.e. more cost). So, FL solar market is likely to crash if the bill gets signed by the governor.
 
So if the utility often times pay higher than retail costs for electricity during peak hours wouldn't solar be beneficial to the utility, at least during those peak hours? In CA the peak hours are around the time solar is generating a lot, especially if the array is facing more west.

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electro7 said:
So if the utility often times pay higher than retail costs for electricity during peak hours wouldn't solar be beneficial to the utility, at least during those peak hours? In CA the peak hours are around the time solar is generating a lot, especially if the array is facing more west.
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Yes. Even if a residential PV system isn't exporting, i.e., its entire output is being consumed by the homeowner, the demand from the grid is reduced by that amount.
 
Hv&Lv said:
No. Wholesale is just that. And we pay wholesale rate during export. Except at “peak hours”.
During peak hours we pay a premium for any electricity exported because it helps us offset the ridiculously high priced peaking power.
Unfortunately not many can or will export during peak hours because they are using everything they are producing.
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Hv, I forget where You are located,is there lots of air conditioning in your region? Up here in the Northeast, there isn't much air conditioning and I am thinking in general most people are exporting during peak hours.

I have a relatively large 16 KW system, which is net metered. My house is half finished and I don't have all the modern conveniences so I end up with almost 4000 KW hours surplus each year. So even with that metering, seems like this isn't a bad deal for my utility.
 
electrofelon said:
Hv, I forget where You are located,is there lots of air conditioning in your region? Up here in the Northeast, there isn't much air conditioning and I am thinking in general most people are exporting during peak hours.

I have a relatively large 16 KW system, which is net metered. My house is half finished and I don't have all the modern conveniences so I end up with almost 4000 KW hours surplus each year. So even with that metering, seems like this isn't a bad deal for my utility.
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Lots in summer.
Piedmont NC
 
Hv&Lv said:
...

It isn’t a violation of PURPA.
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Yes, I wasn't referring to anything you mentioned.

What would be a violation of PURPA is outright banning customer self-generation and refusing to have any program that allows it or compensates for exports to the grid.
 
jaggedben said:
Yes, I wasn't referring to anything you mentioned.

What would be a violation of PURPA is outright banning customer self-generation and refusing to have any program that allows it or compensates for exports to the grid.
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As much as I despise net metering, I think there is a place for solar.

Around here the sales people seem to be targeting the poorer immigrants telling them they need backup power for when the grid fails like the countries they are from. Some salesmen also tell them they don’t need us, once the solar is installed they can disconnect the meter..
THEN there are the despicable companies that sell a solar system to someone, get a permission to operate, and as soon as they do send us a check for $2000 to put on that customers account so they don’t get a bill for a while.
Thats just shady business IMO.
 
ggunn said:
In real time? That is, do you mean that if you export a kWh they credit you for it immediately at the lower rate and then charge you the higher rate when you draw it back out? If so, that's a case for installing batteries.
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Yeah, in real-time. There is no NEM at all. You are correct about the batteries. It undercuts the whole idea of rooftop PV helping to support the grid. They are saying keep it all for yourself.
 
electrofelon said:
I think most met metering laws are at the state level 🤔
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Most of the NEM programs I know are run by each utility. They might be following the directives of a state or local utility commission outlining some of the requirements of a NEM program. For instance, the big 3 IOUs in CA are under the CPUC which directs their operation as monopolies. But the municipal utilities are under the oversight of local public utility commissions. In CA it required an act of the state government to force local municipal utilities to offer any kind of NEM and that has run out. So now we have municipal utilities that are just ending NEM although they still have to allow PV systems to interconnect and they have to pay at least the avoided rate for energy export.
 
We do allow Net billing.
And I believe it is fair to all.
We pay avoided wholesale rate to all exported power through one meter. Use all you produce and sell excess at the price we pay other providers. We pay TWICE RETAIL rate for anything produced during peak hours.
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Hv- so your a utility guy (some of my relatives are as well- lineman). Is this what you think is fair all the way around (for solar homeowners & commercial owners and the utility company)?
If the utility pays twice the retail rate during peak hours from the generating station do you think it would be fair to credit the homeowner (who generates excess solar during peak hours) the same cost amount- twice the retail rate? Is this what you guys do now?
 
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