Neutral as a current carrying conductor

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LarryFine said:
Many years ago, I was taught that the grounded conductor was called the "identified" conductor, either by white or gray color, marking, ribbing, threads in the strands, etc.
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Identified is a new term for me Larry. It does make sense tho.
 
The problem is the way we want to say every thing using the fewest number of words even though single and slang words may have multiple meanings.

A strict engineering definition should not be the sole criteria for an NEC description, simply because very few strict engineering definitions actually exist. For example: A phase difference means different things to a power engineer than they do to an audio engineer. A ground reference means something different to a utility engineer than it does to a communications engineer. There are many more examples where the electrical construction trade has different terms for similar items than do industrial electricians, who use similar terms for different items than do electrical engineers.

I have no problem with saying there are neutral conductors and neutral points, even though they not always the same. Or, that is possible to have one phase conductor but in reality it take two conductors to have one phase voltage.
 
jim dungar said:
The problem is the way we want to say every thing using the fewest number of words even though single and slang words may have multiple meanings.

A strict engineering definition should not be the sole criteria for an NEC description, simply because very few strict engineering definitions actually exist. For example: A phase difference means different things to a power engineer than they do to an audio engineer. A ground reference means something different to a utility engineer than it does to a communications engineer. There are many more examples where the electrical construction trade has different terms for similar items than do industrial electricians, who use similar terms for different items than do electrical engineers.

I have no problem with saying there are neutral conductors and neutral points, even though they not always the same. Or, that is possible to have one phase conductor but in reality it take two conductors to have one phase voltage.
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Excellent point.:smile:
 
Now I'm confused

Now I'm confused

I guess I started this, huh? If I'm running a dedicated circuit from a 120/208 panel to a 120V, 20A duplex recep. is the white wire a neutral or a grounded conductor?
 
iaov said:
The neutral is the wire going back to the center tap of a transformer. It is normaly tied to ground. A two wire secondary does not have a neutral but in industry one leg is usualy tied to ground and then refered to as X2, .
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We call this the GROUNDED CONDUCTOR.

I was taught Identifed.
 
pvitt said:
Is my white wire current carrying. Does table 210.21(B)(3) apply?
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Now I'm confused. Whether or not you call it neutral or grounded, if you are talking about an individual branch circuit then table 210.21 (B) (3) does not apply.

210.21 (b) (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit.
 
pvitt said:
I guess I started this, huh? If I'm running a dedicated circuit from a 120/208 panel to a 120V, 20A duplex recep. is the white wire a neutral or a grounded conductor?
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According to the NEC2008, it is both a neutral conductor and a grounded conductor.

I would bet, that most of the time the word "neutral" is used by an electrician and by the NEC, it is being used as an adjective not a noun.
 
I'm going to run a full boat in this conduit. The customer wants a dedicated neutral (if I can call it that) for each circuit. I believe I need to derate. Would it be six current carrying conductors? I want to say yes, my co-worker says no. My plan is use 10awg. and call it good, but I would like to prove my interpretation of the NEC correct. Maybe I should have put it this way in the first place. I apologize.
 
pvitt said:
I'm going to run a full boat in this conduit. The customer wants a dedicated neutral (if I can call it that) for each circuit.
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A 'full boat' usually means a multi wire branch circuit, you will not have a MWBC you will have three two wire circuits and six current carrying conductors.
 
O.K. you guys are either going to laugh or want to kill me, or both. Earlier I referenced table 210.21....well I meant table 310.15(B)(2)(a). I was in a rush and I'm sorry for the confusion.
 
OK, I think I've got it. No matter what my Dad may have told me, "Identified conductors", "Grounded conductors", and an occasional "Neutral conductor" all get landed on the "Neutral" buss in the MBP.

All neutral conductors are grounded and identified, but all grounded and identified conductors are not neutrals.

Simple, just change 40 years of thinking and speaking habits, and I'm good to go.
 
pvitt said:
I'm going to run a full boat in this conduit. The customer wants a dedicated neutral (if I can call it that) for each circuit. I believe I need to derate. Would it be six current carrying conductors? I want to say yes, my co-worker says no. My plan is use 10awg. and call it good, but I would like to prove my interpretation of the NEC correct. Maybe I should have put it this way in the first place. I apologize.
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Yes you would have to derate with six current carrying conductors.
80 Percent of Values in Tables 310.16 through 310.19 as Adjusted for Ambient Temperature if Necessary.

Of course using table 310.16 assuming #12awg CU THHN the derated value would be 24amps and still ok for 20amp circuit
 
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