New fixtures,c1939 wiring.

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mike n

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Any methods other than re-wire?Customer has old 1930's cloth wiring (in good shape) and wants to change out original fixtures to new fixtures.
Old house condutors will not be up to the rating of thr new fixture leads.Am I missing anything?
THANKS
 
There are some here that will tell you you HAVE TO rewire and maybe they are right. However, it is completely unrealistic to think that is going to happen.

Unless the insulation has fallen off the conductors, I just install the fixtures.
 
With attic access I move the old wires into a J box & run new wire to the fixture. The old pan boxes are usually too small & the wires too short. Especially in old light fixtures the cloth insulation will get brittle & flake off. It has to be replaced. It usually turns a simple fixture change into a major project.
 
Sparky555 said:
With attic access I move the old wires into a J box & run new wire to the fixture.
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That's about half the battle. The fixture will remain ungrounded, and 9 chances out of 10 it will be a metallic fixture.
 
Just completed a job like that last night with older BX. The most challenging part of the job was the 4 ceiling fans they wanted installed. I had to remove the old boxes and put in ceiling fan rated boxes. As luck would have it I had attic access and just used the old boxes as junction boxes and fed new wires to the new celing fan boxes. Only one of them I was able to put the old BX into the new ceiling fan box using an MC snap in connector.

Problem 1 was the fact that the insulation under the cloth covering was brittle and I mean brittle. Too brittle and now I am concerned. I will be recommending they rewire but in the mean time I have a question.

What would be more appropriate as a precautionary measure until the rewire?

1) Adding AFCI protection?
2) Adding GFCI protection?
 
electricmanscott said:
There are some here that will tell you you HAVE TO rewire and maybe they are right. However, it is completely unrealistic to think that is going to happen.

Unless the insulation has fallen off the conductors, I just install the fixtures.
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I agree and do the same thing.

Roger
 
mdshunk said:
That's about half the battle. The fixture will remain ungrounded, and 9 chances out of 10 it will be a metallic fixture.
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I assumed this was old BX, not K&T. The wiring can be cut back a foot to undamaged insulation. I install a new J Box for space & to get a cover on it.
 
Sparky555 said:
I assumed this was old BX, not K&T. The wiring can be cut back a foot to undamaged insulation. I install a new J Box for space & to get a cover on it.
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Old 'BX' is not a NEC recognized grounding means either.
 
iwire said:
Old 'BX' is not a NEC recognized grounding means either.
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You're right. By definition it's grounded, not effectively grounded. In this area the AHJ doesn't require rewiring.
 
You have to use your own experience and judgement when you come across a job like this. Many older installations do not meet todays codes. They may have been complient in their era. Are you going to tell a customer that they can't replace a light fixture (luminaire) because their home doesn't meet todays codes if you feel that it's not a safety issue?
 
SEO said:
Are you going to tell a customer that they can't replace a light fixture (luminaire) because their home doesn't meet todays codes if you feel that it's not a safety issue?
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I have in the past. I take it on a case-by-case basis, but I'd hazard a guess that the lion's share of light fixture changeouts done in existing homes have been done non-compliantly.
 
afci or gfci?

afci or gfci?

I wouldn't change out any protections. If the wiring is so bad that it wakes you up at night, then tell the home owner why and let them make the decision to rewire or not. Putting lipstick on a pig still makes it a pig. If the wires arc between themselves the GFI wont trip. If the insulation is bad where it might arc then odds are so will all the outlets and equipment that is hooked up to it. Are we talking about an up sell and service change maybe? Sounds like an opportunity. An estimate for rewire and service upgrade & an explanation with the final receipt would make for a good opportunity later on down the line. Ya cant fix the world just little peices of it.
 
mdshunk said:
I have in the past. I take it on a case-by-case basis, but I'd hazard a guess that the lion's share of light fixture changeouts done in existing homes have been done non-compliantly.
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I've done this as well Mark and I totally agree about the changeouts.
 
mike n said:
Here in Boston we have a long time electrical instructor that is known to most electricians,he had a saying concerning the electrical code-"it's a real world out there"
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Leo ....... he helped me get my first license. :cool:
 
In this situation I usually try to install or recommend a pendant or some other style of light where the lamp is away from the building wiring connection.

But usually it's a non-issue because whatever light was up there previously has baked the insulation into uselessness, so tape or heat shrink tubing is required before anything else can be done.
 
GUNNING said:
I wouldn't change out any protections. If the wiring is so bad that it wakes you up at night, then tell the home owner why and let them make the decision to rewire or not. Putting lipstick on a pig still makes it a pig. If the wires arc between themselves the GFI wont trip. If the insulation is bad where it might arc then odds are so will all the outlets and equipment that is hooked up to it. Are we talking about an up sell and service change maybe? Sounds like an opportunity. An estimate for rewire and service upgrade & an explanation with the final receipt would make for a good opportunity later on down the line. Ya cant fix the world just little peices of it.
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I agree with Gunning, but do feel if there was a choice - it would definitely be AFCI in this situation. We're talking light fixutures, so that's why the AFCI would be my preference.
 
peter d said:
But usually it's a non-issue because whatever light was up there previously has baked the insulation into uselessness, so tape or heat shrink tubing is required before anything else can be done.
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Better than tape or heat-shrink, try sliding on some insulation stripped from scrap wire. If the insulation won't go on easily, try spinning it while you push, or try some one size larger.

Cut it long enough that it slips up inside the armor as far as possible, and so the splice or termination holds it in place. This also giives you the opportunity to properly color wires.
 
I got lucky a few times by just pulling down the ceiling plate and re-striping the BX so I got new insulation. In this area many of the old homes had the BX fished into place and you can get slack. Of course you may just make matters worse if there is no slack.
 
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