New home const

[iwire]

Doesn't this open the door to unlicensed handymen ?Home owner just says go away mr inspector i did it myself and you cant even look at it.

Jim what prevents an unlicensed handyman from doing electric work in your area by just not pulling a permit?

Unless someone drops a dime inspection services will not know anything about it.

As I said, I feel it is a bad regulation and I hope it gets changed.

Look at that....we agree. 8)

 

[iwire]

Doesn't this open the door to unlicensed handymen ?Home owner just says go away mr inspector i did it myself and you cant even look at it.

Jim what prevents an unlicensed handyman from doing electric work in your area by just not pulling a permit?

Unless someone drops a dime inspection services will not know anything about it.

As I said, I feel it is a bad regulation and I hope it gets changed.

Look at that....we agree. 8)

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Doesn't this open the door to unlicensed handymen ?Home owner just says go away mr inspector i did it myself and you cant even look at it.

Jim what prevents an unlicensed handyman from doing electric work in your area by just not pulling a permit?

Unless someone drops a dime inspection services will not know anything about it.

As I said, I feel it is a bad regulation and I hope it gets changed.

Look at that....we agree. 8)

Bob, i see one differance in that here if an inspector seen you doing work he would demand to see a permit,where as in your case they would simply say i dont need one.I seriously hope you can pressure them into requiring a home owner to get permits.I think we would both agree of all the jobs out there the homeowners job needs looked at if not for his own good then to save a live of a future owner.
As to how many people pull permits here i will admit many EC do not pull them when they should.Sometimes thats the counties fault for making it cost more than what the job is worth.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Jim,

Bob, i see one differance in that here if an inspector seen you doing work he would demand to see a permit, ...

He can't do anything without a warrant.... unless the owner invites the inspection on to the property.
Don

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Jim,

Bob, i see one differance in that here if an inspector seen you doing work he would demand to see a permit, ...

He can't do anything without a warrant.... unless the owner invites the inspection on to the property.
Don

What they would do here is cite your for no permit and fine you up to $500 a day.I think you will do it there way and let them in.

 

[sandsnow]

In Massachusetts a property owner may do electrical work on that property.

As the inspector I refuse to issue a permit or inspect the work.

I can understand your frustration with homeowners.

I do believe however; it every Americans right to work on their own domicile. That's how this country was built. It may sound corny, but some things are sacred. Property ownership and the right to do anything you want on it or to it (within reason) should not be infringed upon.

 

[luckyshadow]

In Maryland(at least the county I live in) a Homeowner may do their own electrical work provided they pass a written test first. The homeowner can take a homeowners code test and if they pass they will be granted a permit for that project only. The work is inspected like any other job ( better I hope).
The homeowner is listed as the " electrician" on the permit and is responsible for the work .

 

[JohnE]

In Massachusetts a property owner may do electrical work on that property.

As the inspector I refuse to issue a permit or inspect the work.

In MA, a permit is only required for "Licensed electricians for hire". As an inspector we are not required or supposed to issue a permit to a homeowner. Permits are for licensed electricians. Attorney General rulings have supported the fact that homeowner is not required to be licensed, and can perform his own wiring on owner occupied 1 and 2 family dwellings. I confirmed personally with our exucutive secretary of the board of electrical examiners Rich Fredette, that we are not to issue a permit to a homeowner. Like Romeo, that is our jurisdictions policy.

However, Massachusetts Electric Code (NEC with a few revisions) is part of Mass General Law, so homeowner wiring must be compliant. (But nobody's checking)

Also, the Mass. Building Code references Mass Electrical Code. Conveniently, I am the also assistant building inspector in my jurisdiction. If and when a homeowner does their own wiring on a remodel or addition, along with their building inspection they get a thorough electrical inspection, as well. :wink:

As I mentioned, permits are for "licensed electricians for hire." If a contractor were to to a job for free, no permit required. Recently an inspector in a nearby community took a contractor to the state board for not pulling a permit on a church job. Contractor proved he was not being compensated in any way for the work, and the board ruled in favor of the contractor.

Mass. has been trying to rewrite the general laws governing these issues, as it seems that the above situations were not the intent when the laws were written. But, they are the result of literal interpretation of what was written into law many years ago. They have been trying to rewrite for a few years, but there are several versions supported by different interest groups.

 

[JohnE]

Yes the way the current law is written left a gapping hole that could allow a slum lord to wire a multifamily apartment as long as he was not 'doing it for hire'.

I'm not sure about this. One Attorney General ruling ruled it is legal for "owner occupied one and 2 family dwellings." I received this info from Jim Fahey, former executive secretary of the board of electrical examiners.

If property owner were rewiring multifamily apartment building, I would challenge the "for hire" clause as it should increase value of the building, indirectly earning him money. I'd be willing to take it to the board for a ruling. It may be a thin argument, but I'd make it and let the board issue their ruling.

 

[growler]

In my local area ( Atlanta GA ) a homeowner is required to permit a remodeling job. To stop investors from dong their own electrical they require that the owner actually live at the address and that they do so for a period of one year. I hear that some areas will not issue a homeowner permit for a service change. Apartment buildings are now considered commercial buildings. The thing that bothers me is that the insurance companies still issue insurance to customers even if they know that work was done illegally. I talked to an agent one day when I knew that a commercial remodeling job had been done with no permits ( lots of electrical ). He said that if they look the job over and don't see any violations the they would write the policy. I don't care about the business that decided to break all the rules but what about the other businesses in the same mall. This was a little strip mall, as far as I know none of the big malls will even let you work without permits and insurance. It seems to me that people like this drive the cost of insurance up for everyone in the same area.

 

[allenwayne]

What about 80.25(E),that will take the wind out the sails.No permit/inspection no power :twisted: I know inspectors that look for this type of thing ,doesn`t have to be an electrical install just unpermitted work and they will slap a stop work order tag up and make the appropriate calls.Here a HO can do all phases of construction from slab to final and they have the same inspections contractors do.As long as all is code compliant then what is the problem.I just finished a new work shop 1000 sq. ft. and it was HO permitted and passed all inspections.I saved 40% over quoted prices by doing it myself. :wink: My wife says I can`t use the 40 % saved to get that new boat I want but she will get the new livingroom furniture she wants :roll: If Momma ain`t happy nobodys gonna be happy :evil:

 

[iwire]

Yes the way the current law is written left a gapping hole that could allow a slum lord to wire a multifamily apartment as long as he was not 'doing it for hire'.

I'm not sure about this. One Attorney General ruling ruled it is legal for "owner occupied one and 2 family dwellings." I received this info from Jim Fahey, former executive secretary of the board of electrical examiners.

If property owner were rewiring multifamily apartment building, I would challenge the "for hire" clause as it should increase value of the building, indirectly earning him money. I'd be willing to take it to the board for a ruling. It may be a thin argument, but I'd make it and let the board issue their ruling.

Good luck in that but I also think that is very thin.

Not that I am a law expert but it seems to me that a homeowner doing their own wiring is (or likely is) increasing the value of their home.

As that has already been ruled acceptable I don't see the difference if was a 30 unit building.

My personal feelings are much like sandsnow's

it every Americans right to work on their own domicile. That's how this country was built. It may sound corny, but some things are sacred. Property ownership and the right to do anything you want on it or to it (within reason) should not be infringed upon.

My only addition to that is I feel it should be subject to inspection and permits.

I do not like the fact inspectors in MA are not required to and are refusing to inspect homeowners work.

JMO, Bob

 

[dlhoule]

Me too. It amazes me the way I like some things better in other places and some things far less than here in Mich.

 

[WV Sparktition]

In West Virginia, a home owner can pull his own wiring, but must have a licenced elec. to make any and all terminations anywhere, on the service end. On the load side of a panel, a homeowner can make up receptacles and switches, and lights.

 

[romeo]

Most of the time it is impossible for a HO wired electrical work meet NEC requirements. I think that other inspectors will agree that inspecting HO wiring is very frustrating.

A HO places the responsability of a safe installation on the inspector and will be the first to place the blame the inspector if there is a future problem. That is why he/she wants the work inspected.

When inspecting HO wiring the inspector becomes an instructor and a designer. That is not the inspectors intended function. To properly inspect HO wiring the inspector would have to crawl in atticts open j boxes check each and every connection, then be left with the worry of having missed something.

If the HO wants to accept the responsability of doing work that he/she is not qualified to do then they must live the the results.

We do get them in some ways though. The HO can not do service entrance work because the POC will not tie in the service unless the inspector approved it, and some building inspectors will not sign off on a final unless the electrical inspector does. All of this is explained to the HO and most of the time the end result is the work is done by a contractor.

During the time that I did inspect HO wiring most of the time I required the HO to hire an electrician to correct the work or I would refuse to sign it off.

 

[JohnE]

If property owner were rewiring multifamily apartment building, I would challenge the "for hire" clause as it should increase value of the building, indirectly earning him money. I'd be willing to take it to the board for a ruling. It may be a thin argument, but I'd make it and let the board issue their ruling.

Good luck in that but I also think that is very thin.

Not that I am a law expert but it seems to me that a homeowner doing their own wiring is (or likely is) increasing the value of their home.

As that has already been ruled acceptable I don't see the difference if was a 30 unit building.

My personal feelings are much like sandsnow's

it every Americans right to work on their own domicile. That's how this country was built. It may sound corny, but some things are sacred. Property ownership and the right to do anything you want on it or to it (within reason) should not be infringed upon.

My only addition to that is I feel it should be subject to inspection and permits.

I do not like the fact inspectors in MA are not required to and are refusing to inspect homeowners work.

JMO, Bob

First, I do think that homeowners should be allowed to perform their own wiring subject to permit and inspection. However, as Romeo pointed out, most would fail inspection. Problem is, MA law does not make provisions for homeowner permits and inspections. There is an ongoing attempt to rewrite MGL 143, but it seems to never be accomplished. How it will affect homeowners, I don't know. I'm sure it will clear up any uncertainties.

Secondly, I don't feel that owner of a multifamily apartment building qualifies as a "homeowner". MA building code defines homeowner as "person who owns a parcel of land on which he resides on which there is a one or two family dwelling". Hence, I believe, the AG ruling referencing "owner occupied one or two family dwelling" in my earlier post.

The other loophole of "not for hire" applies to licensed electricians, not property owners, so I'd withdraw my "thin" argument as not even being necessary.