New Light fixtures, old wiring.

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If there is grounded romex in the box it is almost always in good shape and I will install the fixture, even though it may not be the newer 90 c romex.

If there is an older wiring method, it will almost always be deteriorated anyway, and it will not have a grounding means. Then I will inform them they need some wiring done. The combination of crispy insulation and no grounding, especially on a metal fixture within reach, is a risk I won't take.

I always tell them they could probably find someone to do it for them, but that someone isn't me. They usually see it my way.
 
I was just trying to get some opinions on how others handle this, this house has mostly BX in the older part but it is surprisingly in very good shape and has a good ground according to my Ideal tester.
 
I guess I wasn't very clear in my statement regarding romex, so here is 334.12 and 334.80

334.112 Insulation
The insulated power conductors shall be one of the types listed in Table 310.13 that are suitable for branch circuit wiring or one that is identified for use in these cables. Conductor insulation shall be rated at 90?C (194?F).
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334.80 Ampacity
The ampacity of Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable shall be determined in accordance with 310.15. The ampacity shall be in accordance with the 60?C (140?F) conductor temperature rating. The 90?C (194?F) rating shall be permitted to be used for ampacity derating purposes, provided the final derated ampacity does not exceed that for a 60?C (140?F) rated conductor. The ampacity of Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable installed in cable tray shall be determined in accordance with 392.11.
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The conductors have 90 deg insulation and most instructions are worded "for use with 90 deg insulated wires", (or something similar) but the ampacity of NM is for 60 deg conductors.

Roger
 
Wireman, I know some people will splice new conductors onto the old wiring at the box or pull the old wiring out of the old outlet box and float a jbox close to this outlet box, then extend a new section of NM into the old box.

Some states have Renovation Codes (we are one of these states) that give leeway for some items in older buildings.

Roger
 
wireman3736 said:
this house has mostly BX in the older part but it is surprisingly in very good shape and has a good ground according to my Ideal tester.
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Bear in mind that the old rubber & bituminous compound insulations came, commonly, in three temp ranges.

R = 60?C
RH = 75?C
RHH = 90?C

One can't assume that BX is automatically a 60?C wire.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Bear in mind that the old rubber & bituminous compound insulations came, commonly, in three temp ranges.

R = 60?C
RH = 75?C
RHH = 90?C

One can't assume that BX is automatically a 60?C wire.
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I feel comfortable assume that. If there is any doubt and it ain't marked you would be foolish not to assume the lower temp.
 
Dennis,

I understand that "comfortable"-ness, but, Wireman notes that the BX wiring is in very good condition.

If he is finding good condition BX conductors in a j-box above a luminaire that is, say, the heat concentrating fishbowl enclosed incandescant that has been there for a long time, then I would feel comfortable in assuming that the insulation is higher temperature RH or RHH.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Dennis,

I understand that "comfortable"-ness, but, Wireman notes that the BX wiring is in very good condition.

If he is finding good condition BX conductors in a j-box above a luminaire that is, say, the heat concentrating fishbowl enclosed incandescant that has been there for a long time, then I would feel comfortable in assuming that the insulation is higher temperature RH or RHH.
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Allot of times the condition of the wire will be affected by the fact if the fixture that was there for years is a pendant or a surface mount and also the size bulbs that may have been used over the years. The same type wire may have been used in all locations in the house but again the factors I mentioned will determine the condition of the wire.
 
As an inspector, when I see a new fixture that requires the building wiring to be 90C, and there is BX installed, it is the contractors burden to prove to me the wiring is of the 90C type...I have yet to see the old BX that is 90C. That could be different in different parts of the country, but the old BX in lower NY is not of the RHH type.

P.S.
There is a ton of old wiring in our neck of the woods.
 
There's a good chance IMO if you change an old surface fixture thats been up for 40 years with a new one constructed today with the insulation in the canopy your improving the existing installation, I don't know if I have ever seen an old fixture with the insulation in the canopy.

So the scenario is improve the situation with a new fixture that may be cooler in the box or tell them they need to re feed the light and have them say no and leave that old fixture to cook the supply wires and the old fixture wires.:rolleyes:
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
As an inspector, when I see a new fixture that requires the building wiring to be 90C, and there is BX installed, it is the contractors burden to prove to me the wiring is of the 90C type...
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And when he cannot, what do you condsider the proper fix?
 
Pierre,

As I recall, the only label required on BX was a single 2" x 4" paper tag wire tied to the 250' coil. Once that coil is broken and installed in lengths cut to fit, even the original installing electrician couldn't prove that a given piece of BX was from one coil or another.

I would go to that ceiling hugging incandescant fishbowl luminaire in the kitchen or hallway and see if the conductor insulation in the j-box was still flexible.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Pierre,

As I recall, the only label required on BX was a single 2" x 4" paper tag wire tied to the 250' coil. Once that coil is broken and installed in lengths cut to fit, even the original installing electrician couldn't prove that a given piece of BX was from one coil or another.

I would go to that ceiling hugging incandescant fishbowl luminaire in the kitchen or hallway and see if the conductor insulation in the j-box was still flexible.
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of topic a bit but ---romex that we use today -- we cannot prove what insulation is in there. We know it's 90 degree but we have no idea if it is THHN or THWN. I wish they would write it on the wire
 
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