new panel for ungrounded system

[jetlag]

Have customer wanting to upgrade 100 amp fuse box to 200 amp breaker panel. The house is late 50's and is 2 wire branch circuits w/o grounding conductor. Prob is owner doesnt want to rewire house. My question is will inspector allow old wires to tie in new panel. The insulation appears ok, still has the silver romex color. also would appreciate info on how to perform meg insulation test and the time involved and if inspector might require this. Ive heard if GFCI breakers are installed on every branch circuit, system does not have to be grounded.

 

[iwire]

Here it would be allowed to just change the panel.

For what it is worth saying ''ungrounded system' is incorrect.

The home has always been supplied by a grounded system, what you are missing is a grounding means at the outlets.

 

[George Stolz]

Jetlag, it might be a good idea to provide your location for more accurate replies.

I think around here a service change would be allowed without any modification of the branch circuits as well.

 

[c2500]

Here you would turn the old fuse box into a junction box, setting a ground bar in the fuse box to tie the grounds (or wire nut and tap a ground srew to the box). You would have to run a new 4 wire to the stove.

c2500

 

[dcspector]

Ive heard if GFCI breakers are installed on every branch circuit, system does not have to be grounded.

This is a requirement for receptacle replacements per 406.3(D) Also, check with the local AHJ they may also require AFCI protection for the bedroom outlets as well when you do a service upgrade or "heavy up"

 

[pbeasley]

I imagine the AHJ would also take into account whether or not any of the receptacles have been changed over to 3-prong... at least the last one I asked about it did.

 

[frizbeedog]

Have customer wanting to upgrade 100 amp fuse box to 200 amp breaker panel. The house is late 50's and is 2 wire branch circuits w/o grounding conductor. Prob is owner doesnt want to rewire house. My question is will inspector allow old wires to tie in new panel. The insulation appears ok, still has the silver romex color. also would appreciate info on how to perform meg insulation test and the time involved and if inspector might require this. Ive heard if GFCI breakers are installed on every branch circuit, system does not have to be grounded.

IMO your'e just replacing the source of supply for the existing circuits. You've said the insulation looks ok. If anything you're probably increasing saftey by installing modern overcurrent devices. Never had an inspector require this. The code has many ways to deal with circuits without equipment grounds. That is so we don't have to rewire houses. They were put there for a reason. If what you see looks acceptable then ok. But if you know of definite hazards to reconnecting these circuits, its then your resposibility to not to do so, and advise your customer.

 

[jason]

Around here just changing the panel is fine. You're only required to bring what you're doing up to code. Around here is middle Ga by the way.

 

[jetlag]

define system

define system

Here it would be allowed to just change the panel.

For what it is worth saying ''ungrounded system' is incorrect.

The home has always been supplied by a grounded system, what you are missing is a grounding means at the outlets.

Show me where the code defines system, we all know the poco is grounded. Under definition of premise wiring (system) they use system to describe the entire system to the outlets . I know this is not premise wiring Im only refering to their use of word system. I think one would argue they do not have a grounded system thru out the house once it leaves the panel.

 

[iwire]

The instant a separately derived system is grounded everything down stream is part of a grounded system.

 

[jetlag]

middle ga here also

middle ga here also

Around here just changing the panel is fine. You're only required to bring what you're doing up to code. Around here is middle Ga by the way.

Thats nice to here from a local . I had planed to ask the inspector monday if o k to tie circuits without grounding conductors into the new panel. I wont call it a system again people like to argue. Thanks for all replies

 

[jetlag]

try again

try again

The instant a separately derived system is grounded everything down stream is part of a grounded system.

I agree that what you have been saying is correct, but around here when we say a system is not grounded every one knows that means the outlets do not contain an equip grounding conductor. No one takes that to mean that the neutral conductors are not grounded, what kind of system would that be.