modx1
New member
- Location
- Bear Delaware USA
When upgrading a service at an existing residence are AFCI breakers required in the new panel?
New Service AFCI breakers
- Thread starter modx1
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
You need to check with the local AHJ. It is my opinion that the replacement of a service or other panel does not trigger the AFCI requirement.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I agree.
It is my opinion that it depends if you have to extend the branch circuits or not.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Depends on code cycle.
If you are on the 2011 many AHJ say yes.
If you are on the 2008 they say no
It depends
If you are on the 2011 many AHJ say yes.
If you are on the 2008 they say no
It depends
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
That is correct, but I do not count wire within the new panel as an extension of the branch circuit, however some inspectors may.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
If you end up moving the panel significantly as part of the upgrade and therefore adding more than a few feet of wire to the source end of the circuit, the inspector is more likely to consider it an extension.
But normally I think of an extension as something that provides additional or relocated functionality at the utilization end.
Similarly, with existing K&T I can see some (or most?) inspectors wanting the whole thing pulled out if you cut off 15' at the source end and re-feed it from a new j-box. But cutting 15' off the other end and pulling a new circuit to whatever it had served would not be a problem. Experiences anyone?
Last edited:
- Location
- Massachusetts
I would not count that either but it is very common when doing residential panel swaps for people to cut the circuits back to j-boxes in order to neaten things up and/or get the extra length needed for today larger panels even if the new panel goes right back in the same spot the old one was.
A/A Fuel GTX
Senior Member
- Location
- WI & AZ
- Occupation
- Electrician
Requiring AFCI's as the result of a service change is asking for trouble as issues with neutrals due to unqualified hands making modifications over the years can be a nightmare to correct.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
It may be desirable to have something find those issues, but at same time it may be undesirable for it to be an AFCI that does it.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
From what I recall the 2011 codes says AFCI is required with a modification. So what do you call it when you move a panel or replace it.
[h=2]mod?i?fi?ca?tion[/h] noun \?m?-d?-f?-?k?-sh?n\ : the act or process of changing parts of something : the act or process of modifying something
: a change
[h=2]mod?i?fi?ca?tion[/h] noun \?m?-d?-f?-?k?-sh?n\ : the act or process of changing parts of something : the act or process of modifying something
: a change
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
I don't see the replacement of the panel as a modification of the branch circuit. The branch circuit starts at the load side of the breaker.
texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
As others have indicated, this seems to vary depending on the AHJ. The NEC through the 2011 edition has not made this type of situation very clear. For the 2014 edition this has been clarified. In the 2014 edition see 210.12(B), Exception.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
if you touch it like move conductors from one panel to another you are making a modification.
I know these things are problematic. However I will tell you this. All the upgrades i have done and the AFCI trips I find a loose wire, a nail in a wire. A staple that broke through the insulation.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
I don't agree that moving the wire from a breaker in the old panel to a breaker in a new panel is a modification of the branch circuit.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
This is clarified in the 2014 NEC with an exception.
I say SO what!
Since when does a code in a later version apply to a earlier.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
One thing that this clarifies (well, strongly implies anyway) is that even in the code 2011 edition, modifications, extensions, etc. are meant to be considered at the origin as well as elsewhere along the circuit.
It still leaves open the question of whether just moving the wires without extending them would be a modification under 2011.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Agreed, what if you were just relocating the breaker to a different slot to make room for a double pole, or something like that?
And any information printed in NEC handbook besides the actual code itself is nothing but the authors commentary and is not official NFPA stance on the topic.
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
IMO you modify the panel to new equipment then the breaker upgrade is required to NEC 2011 code -- that said some existing circuits will not clear in which an afci cannot be used(adjustments to decisions are forced) -- NEC 2014 clarifies a panel replacement
JDBrown
Senior Member
- Location
- California
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
In my opinion, my opinion doesn't matter. Neither does yours (unless you happen to be an official representative of your AHJ). The only opinion that matters in these cases the AHJ's.
- Status