New Service on an old house

[Inspectorcliff]

When a new electrical service in installed on a older home, (1948) and perhaps it has 3 circuits wired in BX, and maybe by chance two of these circuits are a three wire. AS the E.C. in the scope of my work, per the power company, I am to just do a new meter can and a new m.b. and and electrode system. How do I make all of the other parts of the code come into play with this issue. The 30 homes that will be done, have tenants (homeowners) on fixed income. They can afford, lets say $975.00 each. My inspector tells me that you have to arc fault every circuit as per 210.12, you have to tamperproof each device, you have to w.r. each applicable device. Hummm. How does this work? All suggestions are appreciated.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

When a new electrical service in installed on a older home, (1948) and perhaps it has 3 circuits wired in BX, and maybe by chance two of these circuits are a three wire. AS the E.C. in the scope of my work, per the power company, I am to just do a new meter can and a new m.b. and and electrode system. How do I make all of the other parts of the code come into play with this issue. The 30 homes that will be done, have tenants (homeowners) on fixed income. They can afford, lets say $975.00 each. My inspector tells me that you have to arc fault every circuit as per 210.12, you have to tamperproof each device, you have to w.r. each applicable device. Hummm. How does this work? All suggestions are appreciated.

I would go over this guys head. It may be that your area has a rule that requires this but IMO it is totally unnecessary. Doing a service upgrade should not involve the entire dwelling to be up to code. Unfortunately the NEC is silent on this issue.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I'm an inspector and I agree with Dennis. How does he figure that you need to update the whole house?

 

[rcarroll]

I agree w/ Dennis & cowboyjwc, also. I look a a lot of meter/service change outs. If that's all the permit is for, then, that's all I look at.

 

[Inspectorcliff]

well well well

well well well

Now we have a bunch of you inspectors saying you only look at the job as it is scoped out to be. Hummmmmmmmmm, Me too. But, I have a difficult time getting that message to some of my men. If it calls for a service, why would you go plug check the bedroom circuits? Thanks Guys, I am with you. Cliff

 

[SEO]

I think that your inspector is out of line. Is he requiring new 4 wire circuits to the range and dryer?

 

[wbalsam1]

I agree w/ Dennis & cowboyjwc, also. I look a a lot of meter/service change outs. If that's all the permit is for, then, that's all I look at.

I agree with cowboyjwc, Dennis, rcarroll, cliff and seo. :wink:

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

He is doing more harm than good. Yes go over his head as far as needed. While everything will not be up to date it still will be far better than it is now. With his attitude nobody will fix anything.

 

[kjless]

a inspector told me that the only time the arc fault and tamper proof upgrades should be considered in an existing house is if more than 40% of the home is being remodeled.

 

[brother]

I agree with cowboyjwc, Dennis, rcarroll, cliff and seo. :wink:

and I agree with wbalsam1, cowboyjwc, Dennis, rcarroll, cliff and seo

 

[quogueelectric]

and I agree with wbalsam1, cowboyjwc, Dennis, rcarroll, cliff and seo

And I agree with all of them^^^^ And Pierre just posted the sect in NY building code that eliminated the 40% rule to encourage new work I will try to find it and get back because an inspector was asking for all of the bedrooms outlets to be on arcfault. I didnt want to arcfault the wiring that I did not install. He agreed to this after I asked to only arcfault the new master bedroom.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

If there is a local code that requires this, the inspector is doing his job. If not, then I would ask for a ruling by his superior. At this point, the older homes will have many issues to deal with that would make this type of upgrade very difficult and expensive.

Most jurisdictions are no longer following requirements to upgrade whole houses due to renovation of a property, based on Square footage.

 

[quogueelectric]

Pierre came to the rescue before I could bring back our post I already cut and pasted it so for those in NY here it is other states I dont know. 11-21-2008, 08:00 AM
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Westchester County, New York
Posts: 4,110



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by quogueelectric
2008 is going to be a VERY UGLY year. Already running into problems where more than 40% of house is reno must bring entire house up to current code. Now how can you epect me to arcfault all 40 years of existing preexisting nonconforming hack brotherinlaw trunkslaming friend who has messed with the wiring in someones home harry homeowner not excluded. How can you expect me to be responsible for bringing the entire house up to current code without rewiring the entire house. You cant arcfault crap should be a country song. Just before the girlfriend comes back the lights should trip.


NYS changed the % requirement for upgrading houses if so much work was performed.
Anyone telling you that you need to upgrade based on a percentage is still referencing the '03 NYS codes. NY has been on the '07 code cycle since January 1 of '08. There is no percentage involved in determining bringing the building up to current codes.

We are now using Appendix J.
Here is the intent as written in the RCNYS-07



"AJ101.2 Intent.
The purpose of these provisions is to encourage the continued use or reuse of legally existing buildings and structures."


So, there is no need to upgrade the existing wiring as you have stated. Appendix J has been completely revised and it has been done so to give relief to building owners, so they are ENCOURAGED to do more work on their buildings without being "pillaged" by the cost of rewiring their entire building.

The Arc Fault requirement in NYS is not for existing work, it is for NEW construction.
__________________
Inspector, Instructor, Industry Advocate

 

[Inspectorcliff]

40%

40%

a inspector told me that the only time the arc fault and tamper proof upgrades should be considered in an existing house is if more than 40% of the home is being remodeled.

Where does he come up with 40%? Sorry guys, I hadn't read all of the articles, prior to writing mine. I know Colorado doesn't say 40%, it refers to lawfully installed at the time of installation. 1968, 1971, 1973 what ever and when ever it was installed then it is grandfathered in whether ME the inspector likes it or not. I have no backing to make one to change it. If it is not legal or unlawfully installed, then that is another bag or stuff.

 

[qcroanoke]

He is doing more harm than good. Yes go over his head as far as needed. While everything will not be up to date it still will be far better than it is now. With his attitude nobody will fix anything.

I agree, at least the service will be safe and as they can afford to, they can upgrade.
To many times the local regulations cost more than they can afford.