New store - "old work" - Holdzit straps?

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A method that I have found effective that might be useful here is as follows:

1. Surface mount is the cleanest way to go, and apparently the AHJ doesn't really like the idea of OW boxes.

2. So get an understanding with the AHJ/Inspector that OW Boxes are not acceptable from a fire safety point of view; then

3. Tell the tenants and owner that surface mount is the only thing that will be acceptable, short of tearing out a lot of stuff at great expense and making it "like new".

The tenants and owner will make the decision you want.

You have to be sure the inspector is solid and won't undercut you after you sell the story.
 
Wow what an interesting thread. I've follwed this one for a few days. I would have given up and used Wiremold a long time ago. Once you get used to it Wiremold "500" is agreat product. It looks clean and professional if you do it right. We even have a Wiremold bender and cutting tool to make things easy. The fittings and accessories are endless.

Bob on the left coast.
 
I think I have the owner convinced wiremold is the way to go, but I'm a little confused on Roger's comment - "the boxes would have to be mounted to the studs (per UL)" - not sure why this is. The other problem I see, if this is true, is that the boxes won't line up consistenty with the five stations that have to be wired.

There is not approved way to anchor to sheetrock in a situation where the wall is a "firewall"? Again, I've been maybe a little spoiled, as all of my experience, as far as commercial, has been in brand new construction - so with this one, if I could have been in there when the space was being roughed - I would have been in "Caddy city" with the whole job. MC Cable throughout.

But then again - you know what they say - "if it was going to be easy your mother would be doing it" (or something similar - not that my mother or anybody else's mother couldn't have wired this one).



Thanks,

Brett
 
Brett, here it is one more time.

Quote:
WALL AND PARTITION ASSEMBLIES

Metallic Electrical Outlet Boxes
Listed single and double gang metallic outlet and switch boxes with metallic or nonmetalliccover plates may be used in bearing and nonbearing wood stud and steel stud walls with ratings not exceeding 2h. These walls shall have gypsum wallboard facings similar to those shown in Design Nos. U301,U411, and U425. The metallic outlet or switch boxes shall be securely fastened to the studs and the opening in the wallboard facing shall be cut so that the clearance between the box and the wallboard does not exceed 1/8 in. The surface area of individual metallic outlet or switch boxes shall not exceed 16 sq in. The aggregate surface area of the boxes shall not exceed 100 sq in per 100 sq ft of wall surface.
Metallic boxes located on opposite sides of walls or partitions shall be separated by a minimum horizontal distance of 24in. This minimum separation distance between metallic boxes may be reduced when "Wall Opening Protective Materials" (CLIV) are installed according to the requirements of their Classification. Metallic boxes shall not be installed on opposite side of walls or partitions of staggered stud construction unless "Wall Opening Protective Materials" are installed according to the requirements of their Classification

This is word for word out of the UL orange book set, the FIRE RESISTANCE DIRECTORY, the same set of books that has the criteria for the rated wall itself. Notice there is no wording that will allow any thing but fastening the boxes to the studs period.

If an inspector is saying it is okay to do otherwise he is not aware of this requirement, but it will not relieve you from some level of liability if something were to happen, especially now that you have read it from UL's own literature.

Roger
 
Roger
I don't think this is refering to a surface mounted Wiremold system. but is in refernece to new installations.

Bret you should not need to anchor to the studs, just use plastic achors or the white screw in hollow wall anchors & the WM will be securly fastened.
 
77401 - I'm hoping your feedback is correct, but I don't even want to turn the bid in (am supposed to turn it in tomorrow - Monday) until I get this nailed. My lack of experience in "add-on" in the commercial world is going to be one of the biggest negatives against me, as far as getting my business going. I think this could be a nice job, and I need to "win" a few to start getting customer referrals. My feeling is that the commercial side can be pretty lucrative.

What causes you to comment on Roger's feedback - where you indicate that Roger's reference is only for new installations?

Thanks,

Brett
 
Its a code thing about having back to back outlet boxes inside a firewall. For Example if a fire in my space penetrates my outlet box & between the same studs is an outlet box in your space then the fire can penetrate to you easily.
Besides commons sense says... How is anyone(inspector)but the installer going to know if your anchored into a wall stud as long as the boxes & raceway are secure.
You see it the inspector walks in & out in 2 minutes max.

Many times common sense has tp predeced code, not eliminate it.
 
roger said:
Brett, here it is one more time.

Quote:
WALL AND PARTITION ASSEMBLIES

Metallic Electrical Outlet Boxes
Listed single and double gang metallic outlet and switch boxes with metallic or nonmetalliccover plates may be used in bearing and nonbearing wood stud and steel stud walls with ratings not exceeding 2h. These walls shall have gypsum wallboard facings similar to those shown in Design Nos. U301,U411, and U425. The metallic outlet or switch boxes shall be securely fastened to the studs and the opening in the wallboard facing shall be cut so that the clearance between the box and the wallboard does not exceed 1/8 in. The surface area of individual metallic outlet or switch boxes shall not exceed 16 sq in. The aggregate surface area of the boxes shall not exceed 100 sq in per 100 sq ft of wall surface.
Metallic boxes located on opposite sides of walls or partitions shall be separated by a minimum horizontal distance of 24in. This minimum separation distance between metallic boxes may be reduced when "Wall Opening Protective Materials" (CLIV) are installed according to the requirements of their Classification. Metallic boxes shall not be installed on opposite side of walls or partitions of staggered stud construction unless "Wall Opening Protective Materials" are installed according to the requirements of their Classification

This is word for word out of the UL orange book set, the FIRE RESISTANCE DIRECTORY, the same set of books that has the criteria for the rated wall itself. Notice there is no wording that will allow any thing but fastening the boxes to the studs period.

If an inspector is saying it is okay to do otherwise he is not aware of this requirement, but it will not relieve you from some level of liability if something were to happen, especially now that you have read it from UL's own literature.

Roger
Click to expand...

I dont thik this applies to surface mounted boxes, only boxes IN the wall.

I would use toggle bolts with fire caulk in the holes.

Tim
 
All Roger is saying is that you can't use old work boxes because they can not be fastented to the stud. Remember to use an old work box you have to make a hole in the wall. The only thing holding that box are a couple of little straps. I'm sure that everyone has seen old work boxes pushed back in the wall leaving a hole that would damage the fire rating. When you surface mount boxes then you are not making any holes in the wall. I use sheet rock screws because they are cheap and fast. If you don't know where the studs are then use anchors ( they even make a metal version of those screw in anchors). Don't let work scare you just because it's new to you, that's how you learn. 30 years and still learning.
 
Roger- can you jump back in the mix here, and see if you agree with what growler said? Just want to see if we can get a consensus on this one, as it could drastically impact my bid.

Thanks

Breett
 
Okay, it appears as though people didn't read the words in the my post of 7-7-06 at 6:03 AM, before I said "the boxes would have to be attached to the studs (per UL)". The words in part before that were "and you decide to mount the boxes in the walls", this is what my statement was based on.

Brett, as far as mounting on the surface, I don't know of anything that would prohibit easy anchors (zip its) or toggle bolts, but in my local area we always try to find a stud to run screws into if possible as mentioned by Growler.

Roger
 
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