New work on old circuit

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jeff43222

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Minneapolis, Minnesota
I'm wondering if there's a consensus regarding when it's permissible to add new outlets to an old circuit. This would be in cases where the old circuit was legal when it was installed, but under current codes the circuit would not be allowed.

As an example, I worked on a condo unit yesterday where the homeowner asked about having a whirlpool tub installed to replace the existing one in the bathroom. I looked over the panel and discovered that everything in the bathroom, plus a bunch of bedroom receptacles and various other lights, were all on one 15A circuit. This was probably legal in the 1960s, when it was built. The panel was original, and as far as I could tell, no new wiring has been done since then.

My opinion is that adding a whirlpool motor to such a circuit would be ill-advised at best, but I wonder about the legality. Since the existing circuit is not legal under current codes, am I prohibited from adding anything to it?
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Good morning, Jeff,

Setting aside the original circuit for a second, does 210.23(A)(2) work for the motor of the tub?
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Lets have a concencus those of us here that wired homes in the 60`s WOW Just before my time .What was the average # of circuits you installed in lets say an 1,100 sq ft home,aside from 250v 3/4 max ???
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Hi Al,

At this point, the whirlpool tub is still in the "pipe dream" stage. I have no idea what the specs of the theoretical tub would be. At the very least, I'd have to make sure it didn't pull more than 7.5 amps.

I'm just trying to come up with some options for her since her electrical panel is right inside the door to the apartment, and the access panel to the plumbing (where I'd install the receptacle for the tub) is about as far away from the electrical panel as possible. She said she was planning on doing a bathroom remodel at some point in the near future, so I was wondering if I could use that opportunity to tap into the existing wiring in the bathroom rather than have to tear up the walls all the way back to the electrical panel.

A second issue is that the electrical panel is completely full, with eight circuits. It's got two 2-pole (range and A/C), two single-pole 20A (kitchen receptacles), and two tandem breakers (four 15A circuits -- dishwasher, disposal, and two for all other lights/receptacles). I don't really like tandem breakers to begin with, and I'd prefer not to put in more if I can help it.

The homeowner told me that other people in the building have installed whirlpools, and the condo association is pretty uptight about making sure any electrical work is done by licensed pros, so I'm operating on the assumption that the other whirlpools were installed according to code.

[ December 15, 2005, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Jeff,

For that era, in the Twin Cities, a lot of multi-unit buildings went in with "master meters", a single service entrance and single PoCo meter.

Did you get a chance to look at your client's dwelling's feeder size, and the overall building service entrance capacity? Sight unseen, I'd be concerned to verify capacity in the SE, especially with the comment from the homeowner about other units adding load.

To your OP, if the motor is equal to or less than 50% of the circuit capacity, in my opinion, it can be done. That said, it may not be pleasant for the homeowner to live with.

Keeping in mind the bigger picture of a bath remodel, you could give the client a bullet to bite, and get her to commit to the additional wall patching for the homerun(s) and panel reconfiguration. As financially painful as it will be, it sounds like the Association is pushing her to get it done "better" rather than "cheaper".
 
Re: New work on old circuit

In this case, each unit has its own meter/main. They are all in a closet in the basement, and the panel in each unit is actually a subpanel. I have no idea what size the SE is (there are about a 16 units in the building). I didn't get a close look at the size of the main breaker, though. I'm guessing (hoping) it's bigger than 60A, seeing as how the unit I was in had an electric range and 15A 240V A/C circuit.

I had a feeling it would be legal to tap the bathroom, but given all the other stuff that's on the circuit, I don't think it would be a good idea if it can be avoided.

The idea of doing demo for a new homerun did cross my mind, and I know a good drywall repair guy who has repaired a lot of the damage I've caused in people's homes, but the homeowner wasn't all that keen on the idea when I explained how much it would cost. She also just painted and carpeted the whole place.

Also, it sounded to me like the condo association was more concerned with legal liability than quality. The main things they were concerned about were whether I was licensed, insured, etc.

[ December 15, 2005, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Originally posted by allenwayne:
Lets have a concencus those of us here that wired homes in the 60`s WOW Just before my time .What was the average # of circuits you installed in lets say an 1,100 sq ft home,aside from 250v 3/4 max ???
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At least answer the question before you threadjack.

No way, no how would this be legal.
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Hmmm ... it seems Scott and Al disagree on this one. I can see both sides. Yes, it would be illegal to run a new circuit configured with what is currently on the existing circuit, but I don't think it's reasonable to say any existing circuit that isn't 100% up to current codes cannot be altered unless everything that is touched becomes code-compliant. Suppose a house was 100% in compliance when it was wired, but now every circuit in the place would be illegal under current codes. So the options would be to rewire every circuit that is touched or run a new circuit every time something new is done?

Al is quite familiar with how the code is interpreted around these parts, so I would defer to his opinion.
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Originally posted by jeff43222:
Al is quite familiar with how the code is interpreted around these parts, so I would defer to his opinion.
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I may be a dummy but I challenge you to show me anything that would allow you to connect a new whirlpool tub to that existing circuit.

Every other situation would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
In Mass you are not required to bring something up to current code just because you repair it but you are also not allowed to add to a violation.

I would bet the farm (if I had one) that the tub will require a dedicated 15 or 20 amp gfci protected circuit.

[ December 15, 2005, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Things are still theoretical, but I do like to think ahead when I come across these kinds of situations. If the tub requires its own circuit, then that will answer the question quite nicely.

You may be right about the tub requiring a dedicated circuit. I don't remember for sure, but I think the last one I wired did have that requirement listed in the instructions. I know I put it on its own circuit with a GFCI receptacle regardless.

[ December 15, 2005, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: New work on old circuit

How about this similiar situation, You have a Kit circ. that supplys cntp. receptacles and lights, can you tap off that circuit for addtional lights creating "more" of a violation, You could also apply this to a bath receptacle/lighting circ. which is probably more common. I say no.
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
I would bet the farm (if I had one) that the tub will require a dedicated 15 or 20 amp gfci protected circuit.
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I'll see your farm and raise you two flatbed trailers, a broke-down ford pickup, and a fat lazy mare. :D

I wanna live 5 minutes from work again. :p

Was it common to have an EGC in the 60's?
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Was it common to have an EGC in the 60's?
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It was the 1962 NEC that introduced the requirement that all receptacles be grounded.

Locally, the inner cities had a so-called "all metal code", i.e., all the wiring had to be in a metal raceway or sheath. While one could install ungrounded two wire receptacles prior to 1962, the wiring method was, in fact, grounded.
Originally posted by electricmanscott:
I challenge you to show me anything that would allow you to connect a new whirlpool tub to that existing circuit.
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As I read the OP, I imagined a homeowner who is trying to get just a little more out of a limited situation. I could imagine someone coming up with a little tub, for the likely little bath, and the tub has a little motor, hence Jeff's question. 210.23(A)(2), if met, will permit it, and, given that means a motor load of 7.5A or less, what manufacturer would require that to be on a dedicated circuit, when it will limit sales?
 
Re: New work on old circuit

The consumer buying products rarely reads the installation instructions, and manufacturers know this. The requirement by manufacturers to have a dedicated circuit protects them not the consumer, that is what they do, protect themselves.

If the consumer read instructions, how many do you think would actually buy hottubs?

The common response to the electrical contractor from a consumer when told how much it costs to electrically install the hottub (after they have purchased the hottub and it is in their yard already), "thats almost as much as I paid for the tub, if I had known that before I purchased the tub..."
 
Re: New work on old circuit

Scott what I meant was standard general purpose circuits excluding range ,cooktops,or a/c`s.As Jeff pointed out there were 2 general purpose circuits.
 
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