NFPA 70E

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petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Re: NFPA 70E

Originally posted by bphgravity:
There is a really simple solution for these problems. Don't do work while the equipment energized. Easy enough. There are very few instances where hot work is required with today's technology.
Thats a "safe" answer, but it does not address the problem of having to shut down a big chunk of a large plant. That often entails risks not electrical in nature that are completely unquantifiable.

I see the main problem being one of working on switchgear. Most individual pieces of equipment can be powered off to work on, but switchgear is something else.
 

Leitmotif

Member
Re: NFPA 70E

I think I am qualified to say some things here.
1. Have MS in safety and industrial hygiene and more important 20 yrs of FIELD (NOT DESK) experience.
2. Did Master thesis on UV and blue light emitted by weld arcs. Close subject to electric arc flash and NFPA 70. Granted power levels 1/100 or 1/000 of that in switchgear (or even some house panels)
3. Learned power generation and distribution on US Navy submarine.
4. I know 3 guys who have done arc flash - 3rd degree burns and all that.
5. Worked at Trojan we had it all up to 230KV.
Hot stiks the whole deal.
6. Tore down and rebuilt several switchgear that had blown out and melt down.

OSHA does come out with these requirements often they are not well thought out - I hav always wanted them to test (real world in the mud not a lab) before requiring. They require MSDS - most are not worth the paper printed on
-- "use gloves" uhh which ones
-- "well ventilatd area" what does that mean?

This evaluate the hazard stuff
- what do you use for the trip level
- instant short delay long delay and associated times??.
Can of worms you can pick worst case say instant and multiply by the long term trip time
AT THE COST
of having your guys triple bundled and almost able to do nothing because of loss of dexterity.

As far as shutting down power lets look at somethng simple replace 277 V lite ballast. If you kill the power the whole office goes dark. No one can work
- simple do it on back shift
WHUPS gotta pay shift premium or overtime.
we gotta have someone with key to get in
Ahhh the hell with it do it hot.
Uhhh use hot gloves - on # 18 (or 20??) wire for the ballasts and then the little orange and blue wire nuts? Not easy I know.

On submarine we could easily shut down half the plant and bring it back up easily. That was in 73 things were simpler then. BUT you still had power in the main control panel for the generators and breakers. Since we were Nuc you could NOT shut it all down SO when changing or doing a meter cal you were working hot even though it was only instument / control (480V on a 2 A fuse)

Safety is good, I am no longer in the field because of all the useless BS and frustratiion (mostly from my own direct management).
IF I put my mind to it I can shut down darn near any operation with safety requirements.
The bottom line in my mind is this
HOW to get the job done in cost effective manner
AND EVERYONE GO HOME OK.
I am not sure of the answers but I think I have a pretty good idea what the questions are.

Hmmm maybe there is a business opportunity here.


Dan Bentler
 

realolman

Senior Member
Re: NFPA 70E

Originally posted by bphgravity:
There is a really simple solution for these problems. Don't do work while the equipment energized. Easy enough. There are very few instances where hot work is required with today's technology.
That is simply unrealistic.

How does "today's technology" make it easier to shut down 3 - 120 unit/ minute lines that share a common mag panel and computerized control, because one has a problem?
 

jbwhite

Senior Member
Re: NFPA 70E

Originally posted by realolman:
Originally posted by bphgravity:
There is a really simple solution for these problems. Don't do work while the equipment energized. Easy enough. There are very few instances where hot work is required with today's technology.
That is simply unrealistic.

How does "today's technology" make it easier to shut down 3 - 120 unit/ minute lines that share a common mag panel and computerized control, because one has a problem?
somebody please tell the government run helicopter rework faclilty where i do alot of work that they have to shut down production on one of the lines, because i need to open a panel cover. :D
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Re: NFPA 70E

Byran,
There is a really simple solution for these problems. Don't do work while the equipment energized. Easy enough.
While I agree that you should not work on energized equipment, the correct PPE is required when you verify the "lock-out". You have the same issue with PPE as when working on or near energized equipment.
Don
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Re: NFPA 70E

Would the utility even know all scenarios? Perhaps two studies are required with each extreme?
In most cases the utility does not know. Also the worst case will often result in an incident energy that exceeds what can be provided by the best PPE available. This whole issue will get even worse on the next cycle of 70E as it will then also have information on the arc blast and PPE for that. In the current version, the PPE is only for the arc flash.
Don
 

tepres

Member
Re: NFPA 70E

This whole issue will get even worse on the next cycle of 70E as it will then also have information on the arc blast and PPE for that. [/QB]
One has to wonder how much is driven by marketing.
Are there any hints as to what the PPE requirements would be for arc blast? Shielding? Blanketing?
This one will be interesting to watch.
 

tepres

Member
Re: NFPA 70E

Originally posted by billj:
I'm interested in hearing how other small contractors are handling the requirements in day to day operations. With regards to implementing the NFPA 70E.
Thank You
Bill Noel
Mechanical Service Inc.
I'm still interested in the original question.
Does anyone know of the practices of some small contractors?
I know only a few and I do not believe they have even considered any of the requirements.
 
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